Saturday 11 August 2018

Death Battle Predictions: Carnage VS Lucy

(ramonzer0)
(Strunton)
(Brobuscus)
In psychology, the “nature versus nurture” debate poses a single question about the basis of human behavior: do we act the way we do because of our genes and the traits we inherit from those that came before us, or is it attributed to the environment we are raised in and the circumstances therein? The answer isn’t as clear-cut as any of us would want it to be, and trying to apply such an inquiry to fictional characters is even less so. However, when confronted with the absolute scum of the Earth and those who are mentally too far gone, you do have to pose another question: what the fuck could have made them turn out the way they do?
In the next episode of Death Battle, two such utterly messed-up combatants take center stage. These two troubled orphans have led lives ruled by their near insatiable desire to cause the general suffering of any unfortunate fool who had dared even so much as to look at them funny. Not helping their bloodlust were the shiny new superpowers they had awoken to in order to further facilitate their murderous ways, further turning them into inhuman freaks of nature who only knew how to kill. Both were born and bred to embody the concept of brutality, and now these misanthropic monsters will clash in a match very well made in the bowels of Hell itself:
Carnage, Marvel Comics’ sadomasochistic symbiote supervillain. Lucy, the merciless Diclonius maiden from Elfen Lied. For this next fight, collateral damage and widespread death will be ever-present in a fight which pits a remorseless maniac imbued with an alien being that has made him damn near unkillable and unstoppable against a scarred soul destined to bring about the fall of man with her hoard of indestructible and invisible hands. Hundreds if not thousands of lives have been taken by their tainted hands for as long as they have existed, and both of them will aim to take one more to continue their macabre collection uninterrupted: each other’s.
A Heads Up from Ya Bois
We want to note that Lucy here is being composited between her anime and manga incarnations. Why “composite”? Elfen Lied’s anime adaptation was released before the manga was finished; resulting in differences between story events and more importantly, power levels. (Think of this similarly to how the 2003 Fullmetal Alchemist anime doesn’t adhere to the original manga, yet the Brotherhood version several years later is mostly faithful.) That said, we’ll be leaning a bit more towards the manga in terms of precedence, as not only is that the primary canon, but Lucy is far more powerful there than she is in the anime.


On the other hand, we’ll be sticking to the main 616 universe as always for Carnage, being a Marvel character and all. While we will be acknowledging a few feats accomplished by other hosts of the Carnage symbiote, the analysis here will mainly cover his most well-known and long-running host, Cletus Kasady. This is much in the same way how we and Death Battle primarily focused on Eddie Brock as Venom’s host when he fought Bane over a year ago. While Kasady in the comics does not currently own the original symbiote, he has worn one other in the Venomverse crossover that is comparable to it, and as such, feats for that are fair game.
Also, we here at the G1DBFB have repeatedly analyzed multiple violent feats and powers seen from some of the characters and series represented on the show, but with Elfen Lied being one of the most - quite possibly even THE most - violent and shocking franchises we’ve undertaken thus far - not to mention some very gruesome images from Carnage’s end as well - we actually want to take this time to warn you viewers that you will be witness to some very uncomfortable images here.
That “faint of heart” line above isn’t just a joke, so we advise caution before proceeding past this point. (Consider this warning in the context that we’ve not done this for the likes of Mortal Kombat, Resident Evil, Dead Rising, Fist of the North Star, Afro Samurai, etc.)


Don’t say we didn’t warn y’all. (On the other hand, if y’alls are part of the crowd that really gets their jollies with content like that, then more power to you filthy animals!)

Background

Carnage
Ever since he was a child, Brooklyn native and wanted serial killer Cletus Kasady had surrounded himself with a long trail of blood and death, most of it he himself was responsible for. He killed his own grandmother, nearly died at the hands of his own mother after killing her pet dog, manipulated his father into killing her, subsequently got him executed by the state though a non-defense in court, repeatedly attacked others who ostracized him at the orphanage he was raised in not long after, and eventually burned the whole place down - all before adulthood. These traumatic events shaped Kasady’s worldview, as he came to the belief that law and order were illusions and living through chaos was the one and only true path to freedom.


Kasady was ultimately apprehended and sentenced to life in Ryker’s Island, during which he would temporarily share a cell with disgraced reporter Eddie Brock, the host of an alien symbiote which transformed him into Spider-Man’s arch-nemesis, Venom. Following an encounter with the web-slinger and his subsequent incarceration, the symbiote had been forcibly separated from him, and he needed to bide his time before the two would rejoin to exact their revenge. While in custody, he and Kasady clashed due to their wildly opposing personalities and reasons for living, often resulting in fights that the former would win decisively and prove that he would not stoop to low as to become a crazed maniac like his cellmate.
In due time, the reunited Venom would make his escape from Ryker’s, but unbeknownst to him, the symbiote had been pregnant at the time of their breakout and left behind an offspring in his cell which it had failed to mention to Brock. This child would latch onto Kasady, and the two proceeded to create a literal long-lasting blood bond fueled by their shared insanity and commitment to performing wanton acts of violence. Now with the means to show the world his philosophy and reason for living, Kasady and his new ally fused themselves into a single entity that would go on to become one of the greatest threats their universe has ever known, under a moniker that had best described the one thing they had wanted to spread the most: Carnage.

Lucy
In the Kamakura province, a young girl named Kaede was found alone after being seemingly abandoned by her parents. While a local orphanage took her in, she faced discrimination due to the two horn-like appendages present on her head; the staff avoided interacting with her while the other children demanded that she leave and harassed her repeatedly to enforce this message. Kaede paid them no mind, and tried to comfort herself by taking care of a stray puppy that lived nearby. However, a group of bullies soon found them and went on to murder the dog in front of her eyes, triggering an inner darkness that had previously laid dormant until that point. In a matter of seconds, she lashed out and killed every one of them, all without lifting a finger.
This was Kaede’s first awakening to her nature as a Diclonius, a newly evolved species “destined” to one day supplant humanity as the most dominant life form on Earth. As she fled the orphanage in her despair, she conversed with a voice within her DNA that represented her primal instincts. It convinced Kaede that she could not hope to possibly co-exist with humans and drove her to kill in order to forsake her humanity and make the world their own. For the next 5 years, she did just that by slaughtering various innocents to survive and unknowingly spread the Diclonius virus, until she was captured by the mysterious Diclonius Research Institute and detained in an offshore facility to be experimented on.
After 3 years of captivity, Kaede - now referred to by the codename Lucy - attempted to escape captivity; while successful, she was rendered unconscious, causing her to develop a third personality named Nyu which represented whatever remained of her innocence. She was eventually found ashore by Kouta, a schoolboy who once was Kaede’s sole childhood friend, and was invited to live with him and his cousin Yuka. Since then, Lucy has remained dormant while she and Nyu attempted to peacefully coexist with her “friends”, often reemerging when confronted with other Diclonii or special forces soldiers hell-bent on recapturing her.

Abilities

Carnage

Carnage Symbiote - Overview
The red-colored symbiote Kasady merged with is a member of an alien race called the Klyntar, who originate from a distant planet  located somewhere in the Andromeda Galaxy. Their origins stretch back millions of years ago, when the deity Knull created the first symbiote in the form of the Necrosword, with which he intended to kill the Celestials and corrupt their creations, driving entire races into committing random acts of violence. However, when their connection to Knull was severed by Thor, the noble-minded symbiotes and their hosts rebelled and sealed him away in their home planet, naming it and their species after their word for “cage”: Klyntar.
Ashamed of their past misdeeds, the surviving Klyntar created a cover story which had always presented themselves as mostly very benevolent folk who had hoped to create heroes by bonding with noble-hearted individuals and empowering them. These often result in the symbiotes obtaining some of the host’s powers which they can then pass on to another in a continuing cycle. However, bonds with morally questionable characters and incompatible hosts often causes the both the symbiotes and hosts to become corrupted, resulting in the more manic portrayals the Klyntar are more well-known for in most Marvel media.
In the past, one particular symbiote was bonded to Deadpool during the original Secret Wars event; its connection with him is theorized to be responsible for driving it insane. It later attached itself to Spider-Man in the aftermath and enhanced his powers, but he drove it away due to its negative influence on his morality, eventually resulting in a bond to its most recognizable host in Eddie Brock and the later creation of Venom. When the symbiote attempted to break Brock out while he was in custody with Kasady, it gave birth to a child during the attempt which it had neglected to tell Brock, believing the offspring to be of no concern; hence, Carnage came to be.
Because of the symbiote, Carnage possesses various superhuman abilities and more, most of which are because of its parent’s connections to both Spider-Man and Venom, whom he has often been described and portrayed as being superior to in almost every aspect. He can lift a rough average of 80 tons, move at massively hypersonic speeds, and survive all sorts of fatal attacks. Much of this abnormal strength is caused by a stronger bond between Kasady and the symbiote when compared to other Klyntar-host relationships; this is enforced by Carnage’s use of singular pronouns (“I”, “mine”) as opposed to the plural ones used by Venom (“we”, “ours”).
We do want to note that as of the time of this blog’s writing (and the episode) that the majority of the Carnage symbiote isn’t with Kasady, although traces of it still remain in his bloodstream. It was stolen from him by Norman Osborn, who merged with it to form the Red Goblin; the Goblin serum he had injected into himself caused the symbiote to completely lose its weaknesses to fire and sonic attacks, which it carried over in a portion he had gifted to his grandson Normie. Spider-Man later destroyed it via immolation; as Norman had been in physical contact with it at the time, it had caused him to go insane, causing him to believe himself to be Kasady.
As for Kasady himself, he was later recruited by the Poisons, an alien race that sought to assimilate the Klyntar into their fold. To help them combat a multiversal army of Venoms, Kasady was forcibly bonded with an alternate Carnage symbiote in spite of his resistance to the procedure, likely due to the remnants of the original within his blood. He was later assimilated into the Poison hivemind, although his psyche allowed him to keep his own identity while supposedly making him stronger than his normal self. Kasady’s last appearance with this symbiote saw him getting tossed into outer space, although he is presumed to still be alive.

Webbing and Tendrils
As with his “predecessors”, Carnage can crawl on walls and shoot virtually-unbreakable webs organically synthesized by the symbiote’s own biomass to swing and restrain opponents. He can also create tendrils in the shape of weapons like lances, maces and axes, form spikes on his body and unlike Venom, mold them into projectiles to hit distant targets, although these thrown appendages disintegrate not more than a minute after leaving his body. While Kasady has no officially known formal combat training, his fighting style is still unhinged and unpredictable enough to keep even well-trained opponents on their toes.

Shapeshifting
Kasady’s control of the symbiote also gives him the ability to shapeshift, which serves multiple purposes. While this shapeshifting does not extend to directly copying the appearance of another person, it does allow him to either mimic everyday clothing, mask his presence by blending into the environment or turning invisible, and bulk up his physique to more muscular proportions, while also increasing his lifting and striking strength. He can also form wings to soar through the air; in conjunction with his web-swinging, speed and natural agility, this grants Carnage many ways to traverse long distances within the span of mere seconds or minutes.

“Spider-Sense”
The symbiote also possesses its own version of Spider-Man’s Spider-Sense, where it acts as a second set of eyes, senses any oncoming threats and warns Kasady of their approach, allowing him to react accordingly. Whether or not this variant can be as remotely effective as the original - which can further discern threats on different levels and detect hidden weapons - is unclear. Furthermore, a unique tidbit behind this is that because of the parent symbiote’s previous ties, Carnage cannot be detected by the actual Spider-Sense itself, nor can the Venom symbiote do the same with its own knock-off or ability to track the genetic signatures of its offspring.

Healing Factor



The Carnage symbiote itself is unique among its “family” in that it is directly bonded to Kasady’s blood, further enhancing their connection to each other to a greater degree than Brock and the Venom symbiote. This has boosted the healing factor the symbiote normally has to near-Deadpool levels of effectiveness. With it, Carnage has survived decapitation, broken limbs, being literally torn apart in half and world-ending explosions, making it difficult to kill him off for good. It has also granted him immunity to all forms of sickness and toxins, and can adapt to foreign environments in seconds, like being able to breathe in outer space.

Symbiote Infection / Mental Manipulation
Carnage can further exert his control over the symbiote by infecting others with it through physical contact. Using his tendrils, he can read the thoughts of others, implant his own insane thoughts into their brains and control their actions; even superpowered individuals like the Avengers and the Silver Surfer can fall victim to this. In most instances, the infection is implied to be vampiric in nature, draining infectees of their life force. Carnage can also use this to absorb sources of biomass to become larger, accelerate his healing factor further, create clones of himself and even exert some control over technology and other forms of inorganic matter.
Unusually, the symbiote’s biomass can also be replenished by feasting on the negative emotions of its hosts and/or victims. This may sound like unclear flavor text, but this does have some basis in Marvel lore. Besides the fact that Kasady’s insanity is responsible for his stronger bond with the symbiote - fueled further by its ability to naturally amplify these emotions, its connection with the Silver Surfer was severed in part with the Surfer countering its feelings of rage with compassion and remorse for his role in the destruction of a Klyntar planet, and a weapon designed to target negative emotions failed to put Carnage down for good.
The Carnage symbiote itself is fiercely devoted to Kasady and his ideology, and will not hesitate to fight on its own if it detects that he is in mortal danger. By itself, it retains many of the inhuman abilities a complete Carnage possesses, and will destroy anything in its path to be reunited with him should they be forcibly separated. In the event it bonds with another host, the symbiote tortures them by forcing Kasady’s memories into their minds to mentally break them into relinquishing control. Most individuals like Norman Osborn have been shown to tame it for a time by appealing to its sadistic nature, but the list of such people to actually do so is short.

Lucy

Diclonius Physiology - Overview
At an unknown time in the history of Elfen Lied, a mutation occured within our species’ DNA, triggering a change that would bring about the dawn of a new kind of homosapien, the Diclonius. Heralded as the next step of evolution while also being feared as the being responsible for the extinction of lesser humans, the Diclonii originated from Kaede’s unnamed mother, whose genetic code was not only passed on to her sole child, but was responsible for the creation of several other children through experimentation; aside from Kaede herself, other Diclonii in the series include test subjects Nana and Mariko, who have fought Lucy throughout the series.
A Diclonius can be physically identified by a pair of horns which resemble cat ears on top of their heads, and eyes and hair with a diverse and unusual set of colors, like pink and green. Inside, the biggest difference they have from normal humans is at their pineal gland. Normally, this nut-shaped part of the brain produces melatonin, a hormone which helps regulate a person’s sleeping patterns. Diclonii have these glands as large as an egg, while they double as the source for many of the superhuman abilities they possess; this actually has its basis on Lovecraftian stories like “From Beyond”, where the gland is tied to several latent senses.
When compared to ordinary humans, Diclonii have a higher degree of strength and durability than that of a normal human, as shown by Lucy here promptly ripping the head of an adult woman. They also seem to have better reaction times and survivability, given the near inhuman beatings and such they most often survive. Diclonii also possess an innate ability to detect others of their own kind, although this has its limits. By far their most notable feature are their Vectors, transparent and telekinetic arms mainly used as weapons and shields which will be expanded upon in future sections.
The Diclonii are separated into two castes: Queens and Silpelits. The latter are referred to as “worker bees” that spread the Diclonius virus to human males, causing their offspring to be born as Diclonii, and have shorter lifespans due to their accelerated aging. Lucy, on the other hand, is the sole known Queen Diclonius, who can not only age normally but can also reproduce sexually. As of the events of both the Elfen Lied manga and anime, almost all of the Diclonii have been females, save for Lucy’s half-brother, who is theorized to be some kind of new Diclonius variant due to being the sole male.
While Diclonii often seem peaceful and can be raised as such, they face discrimination due to their unusual appearances; those who are aware of their true nature know that they can supplant the natural order and replace it with one where they are dominant. This is the likely trigger for the homicidal and destructive instincts Diclonii possess, where the abuse they accumulate over the course of their lives drives them to lash out and use their powers to kill. Often, this manifests in the form of a Voice which talks to a Diclonius and pushes their instincts to commit murder and eventually make the Diclonii the most dominant species on Earth.
Chief Kakuzawa of the Diclonius Research Institute believed that these modern-day Diclonii were the continuation of another species of horned individuals from the distant past. These “original Diclonii” were stated to also have unusual appearances and supernatural abilities, causing them to be hunted down by humans who distrusted them. The Chief believed that he descended from a bloodline connected to them - neutered by cross-breeding with ordinary humans, and that Lucy’s arrival was a sign of the prophesied “Messiah” who would lead the Diclonii into overthrowing humanity.
These tales are consistent with the modern Diclonii’s instincts and capacity for murder in addition to spreading the virus that can lead to the creation of more Diclonii which could result in such a goal being realized. However, this ended up being proved false; the modern Diclonii like Lucy had just came to be very recently, and the Kakuzawa clan had deluded themselves into thinking that a secondary mutation they had connected them to the supposed originals. In any case, the old stories ended up being nothing more than myths with no relation to the current Diclonii beyond coincidences in their backgrounds.

Vectors
Aside from their unusual colors and horns, the main defining feature of a Diclonius - at least, to those who can see or are aware of their presence - is their Vectors. These are invisible and intangible arms which sprout out of their backs, and are often used as their main source of self-defense and if need be, murder. Such a name actually has its basis in two different fields of science; biological vectors are organisms which spread diseases and viruses from one being to another, while vectors in physics are forces that have both magnitude and direction - both of these definitions apply to the ones possessed by the Diclonii to different extents.
Vectors are extensions of a Diclonii’s body, and serve as extra limbs they can manipulate at will. They are invisible to non-Diclonii, although it is still possible to feel their presence and hear them on very rare occasions. On their own, they possess inhuman levels of strength and toughness, capable of cutting through or lifting almost anything, launching their main bodies far enough to mimic flight and acting as a shield to defend against explosions and other large area-of-effect attacks. They can also move fast enough to guard their main bodies against fast-moving projectiles and kill people before they realize they are already dead.
Each Diclonii has a set amount of arms, as well as a range in which they can reach up to; in Lucy’s case, her Vectors over around the mid-10s mark with a originally 2 meter range. It is possible for a Diclonius to push past these limits by sprouting more arms and increase their size and range, but doing so can be risky and lethal; continuously overusing and pushing their Vectors will result in their body deteriorating and melting, eventually leading to their death. Lucy herself at her peak is able to create up to 28 vectors, in which an individual vector can reach the length of over 2,700 miles and a width of 51 miles. If she were to place all her vectors side by side, that means they can cover over 1,400 miles. In comparison, that’s longer than the United States and can cover over half of the country.

Cellular Stitching
Lucy’s Vectors are unique in that they are capable of reconnecting and restoring damaged cells, allowing her to heal at a much faster rate than a normal human being would. Thus, in the event that her Vectors cannot defend her and she is hurt, she can just tie them back together to continue fighting. She can also use this ability on other people; the above example sees her reconnect Kouta’s damaged cells together after he suffers a near-fatal injury. Whether this power allows her to manipulate cells in ways other than reconnection is unknown, although this could theoretically allow her to attack opponents on a cellular level as well.

Vector Intangibility
Vectors themselves are made of molecules, which can vibrate at variable speeds to perform different tasks. At lower speeds, the arms are rendered intangible, allowing them to move through most objects unimpeded. As the vibration increases, so do the Vectors’ ability to exert their power by slashing and lifting heavy materials or disrupting blood vessels, eventually capping off with fast-moving molecules that allow them to cause miniature explosions. These speeds can be changed on the fly, allowing Lucy for example to render her Vectors intangible, phase through a target and speed up to rip out vital internal organs.

Barriers



In a situation where she is forced on the defensive, Lucy can create barriers around her body using the Vectors to wrap it up. Hence, oftentimes when she is shot at, the Vectors invisibility makes it look like projectiles - whether as small as handgun fire or even as large as missiles - just outright stop before they make contact with her body. While it should be theoretically possible to penetrate the Vectors’ defense with brute force, it is more likely that she can be damaged by abusing gaps within the Vectors to hit parts of her body.

Diclonius Virus
The Vectors also contain a mysterious virus that spreads to any human male it comes into contact with; this is theorized to be the main reason why the Diclonii possess their Vectors - not as a weapon, but as a tool to ensure the spread of their species. When infected, their genetic code is rewritten such that any offspring they father will always be a Diclonius, regardless of whichever woman they end up impregnating. Lucy inherited this virus from the first true Diclonius: her mother. That being said, the virus itself is not fatal nor does it afflict infectees with any harmful side effects, so for the purposes of a fight to the death, it is essentially useless.

Split Personalities
Due to the trauma that Kaede had experienced growing up, she had ended up developing multiple split personalities, each of which represent different parts of the larger fractured original she once had.
The first is that of Lucy, her primary personality and the one chosen to participate in this fight, named as such by the scientists who had experimented on her. While she can appear morose and disinterested given her contempt for humanity, Lucy wants nothing more to be a part of the human world and be accepted by others, but is aware that her past actions and identity as a Diclonius will always hinder this goal of hers. She is often the one present when a fight breaks out, and possesses an unmatched sense of brutality while in combat. Despite her desire to kill, she refuses to do so in front of Kouta, the only one who had treated her as a true friend.
The second is Nyu, an innocent and carefree young girl who represents Kaede’s inner goodness and the type of person she would have likely been as a human. Named after the only sound she could make after being found by Kouta and Yuka, she initially had a childlike sense of naivitie that belied her physical appearance, but later matured more as she became the predominant personality. When she experiences great physical pain or feels threatened, Nyu makes way for Lucy, but if she herself must fight, she will not hesitate to use her Vectors to defend herself and those she cares about in spite of her reservations towards violence.
The last personality is referred to as the DNA Voice, representing Kaede’s primal instincts as a Diclonius. It is this persona that fuels Lucy’s penchant for killing, and unlike her counterparts and their own less twisted senses of morality, she believes that all of mankind need to perish for the Diclonius to stand dominant. Near the end of the manga, the DNA Voice overrides both Lucy and Nyu and takes over Kaede’s body in a last ditch attempt to wipe out humanity at the expense of their own well-being, and is directly responsible for performing many of Lucy’s most high-end feats at the time.

Feats

Carnage

Accomplishments

Destructive Capability

Speed

Durability

Lucy

Accomplishments



Destructive Capability

Speed

Durability

Weaknesses

Carnage
As with Venom, Carnage was originally subject to the Klyntar’s weaknesses to fire and sound-based attacks, which often resulted in the symbiote being separated from their hosts. However, such a vulnerability has been portrayed as inconsistent; both have faced enemies who have abundantly used such attacks in the past without any negative side effects, and the former has evolved past the point where neither have any effectiveness on him. His weakness to sonics was nullified when he came into contact with the Darkhold book, and he has developed a good amount of resistance to fire, although intense enough attacks can still be an issue for him.
That said, Carnage’s greatest strength also doubles as his greatest weakness. Kasady’s insanity may fuel his symbiote’s power and has contributed to the rather unorthodox way of fighting he has to make him unpredictable up to an extent, but his desire to be as chaotic and violent as possible has been exploited in the past, often resulting in craftier opponents like Deadpool and Spider-Man to put him into unfavorable scenarios. His healing factor also has its limits; while Carnage has survived a lot of things which should have likely been his end, the symbiote can take a lot of time to help him recover from especially grievous injuries.

Lucy
While she is a truly dangerous individual, Lucy’s Diclonius powers have limits, with the last of them being particularly fatal. If her horns are broken, or if her pineal gland is damaged enough, it will not only cause her to lose her Vectors, but forces her less-combative counterpart Nyu to re-emerge. Nyu herself can use the Vectors if she can and absolutely has to, but she lacks the violent tendencies and penchant for killing that Lucy has. Not only that, but without them, Lucy/Nyu would essentially be nothing more than a normal teenage girl, which makes her a lot more vulnerable than she would be with them.
Pushing her abilities to their maximum for an extended period of time will cause them to slowly eat away at her body and force it to melt. At the peak of Lucy’s power, her overuse of the Vectors to try and destroy all of humanity while attempting to save Kouta resulted in her being reduced to nothing more than a puddle with a head easily finished off by a single bullet from a handgun. In other words, Lucy’s true strength with the Vectors can only be shown when she tries to literally kill herself, past the point where her own healing factor cannot continue to support her.

Summary

Carnage
Advantages:
  • Faster than Lucy and her vectors.
  • More experienced combatant, given his larger track record.
  • Far more versatile in terms of techniques and hax.
  • Possesses a better healing factor.
Disadvantages:
  • The Vectors’ ability to bypass anything could allow Lucy to directly attack Kasady.
  • Cannot see or sense Lucy’s vectors.
  • Lucy has the power to put Carnage down for good.
  • He’s an edgelord.

Lucy
Advantages:
  • Boasts superior destructive capability, which only increases at her peak. Combined with the Vectors atom-splitting explosions, this could be a way for Lucy to reliably beat Carnage past the point of no return.
  • Vectors have the superior range, and phasing allows her to bypass the symbiote to attack Kasady directly if she wants to.
  • Carnage cannot see or sense her vectors.
  • Has better showings of strategic thinking than Carnage.
Disadvantages:
  • Slower than Carnage.
  • Lacks a healing factor on par with Carnage’s.
  • Also lacks the more versatile powerset the symbiote has.
  • She’s an edgelord.

Verdicts

ramonzer0

/
Fight Track Name Prediction: Savage Vectors
They warned us. This was foretold back 15 years ago.


First, Violent Ken. Now, Terry’s a girl. The SVC Chaos runback has begun, and we have to stop it before its hideous presence continues to sp--- actually, wait: I will take new Darkstalkers and Metal Slug games please. Then again, we do live in the timeline where “WALKING DEAD X TEKKEN” is a thing, and this lost child won EVO:


Also, if Arc System Works promises an announcement for an event in Las Vegas which runs up to 2 in the morning (and nothing good happens after 2 a.m.) which may or may not be Persona 5 Arena or anything really and is primarily run by your dear friends and uncles in the FGC drunk AF off their asses and breakdancing while competitive Catherine is going on:


Oh, and tl;dr for the lazy people out there: Lucy is canonically dead, Carnage likes to die and come back to life a lot. Ergo, Carnage wins. That’s all, folks.


Seriously, though. As much as I love a good old fashioned Marvel/DC fight, those types of matchups tend to lose their novelty fast, and there’s a lot more fun to be had when characters from episodes where they aren’t pit against each other. (Good examples: Goku vs. Superman, Wolverine vs. Raiden, Shredder vs. Silver Samurai, Joker vs. Sweet Tooth.)
Plus, this just so happens to be one of the most thematically apt fights the show’s ever done, even if at first, you’d rightfully wonder why the naked anime girl is fighting red baby Venom. I mean: bloodthirsty orphans who’ve been murdering since they were kids, empowered by weird biological bullshit and have the same “screw everything, kill them all” mentality is such a finely-tuned common link between Lucy and Carnage, and even better is that this fight can genuinely go either way when you break down their powers and strength levels. I mean, who would’ve thunk that this exact match-up would end up being this close and exciting? Nobody.
In terms of strength, Carnage may have the upper-hand in raw power when compared to other street-level Marvel heroes and villains like Spider-Man and Venom, but he’s still fighting an uphill battle when Lucy, who can throw entire tanker ships with her Vectors, and that’s still not in her maxed-out state, which - and this bears repeating - could have wiped out all human life on the planet. At minimum, you have to peg her as being a country buster, and Carnage doesn’t have the means to outmuscle her properly. That’s one point for the little lady.
Speed may seem like it also belongs to Lucy, if you factor in how how fast her Vectors needed to have moved to enter the Earth’s orbit from wherever she was and spread in a matter of seconds. However, Marvel’s love affair with the word “microsecond” rears its ugly head again, as it gives Carnage the advantage here thanks to the speeds he and other street-level characters move and attack at. For reference, we highballed Lucy’s orbital Vector feat to at least around Mach 1100, yet it isn’t enough to top Carnage scaling to feats which put him at minimum six times that value (around Mach 7000+ without being generous), so Cletus wins this one.
This is where things are about to get a little dicey, since a lot of it is based on interpretations which as you’ll see here vary very wildly. Carnage and Lucy both have a lot of counters and win conditions that play off their powers and their ability to survive what the other has to offer, and actually sorting out who’d take a definitive victory requires examining them all, or at least the most likely scenarios. With that said, y’all might want to get some food.


While you’re eating, I’ll be here wondering if VS debating is still worth it, or it is truly the odd fellow my friends make it to be. Probably the latter.




We're going to start working our way down the contested elements of the fight, beginning with how much punishment both sides can take. Carnage and lesser symbiotes have not only survived tussles with Spider-Man, but have taken hits from foes way stronger than either of them, like the Hulk, Juggernaut, Doctor Doom, Sunfire and Sentry. While they don't necessarily scale to them in terms of physicality, their ability to take such attacks is pretty consistent.


Lucy on the hand should be able to defend on the same level of attack power she can output, which means that she could - in theory - be more durable than Carnage. Him having the speed advantage shouldn't matter if his hits can only hurt her so much, but this is where we have to contest the nature of what the Vectors truly are.
Now, most sources online attach the words "telekinesis" or "telekinetic" when describing Diclonii and Eflen Lied, and if you were to assume that based on what they actually are and what they can do, it wouldn't be that far-fetched. I mean: invisible and intangible hands tied to a gland within a Diclonius' brain which if damaged will compromise their ability to summon them? Sounds a lot like telepathy to me.
How is this important? This means that the destructive capability and durability edges that Lucy holds are tied to her Vectors. With her own physical body, Lucy isn't likely to do much fighting on her own and won't be able to attack or defend herself if Carnage manages to get up close. At best, she's only been able to survive much weaker explosions and blunt force with her own healing factor, which doesn't even come close to the bizarre levels of effectiveness that Carnage's own has.
Those durability feats of hers without the Vectors to defend her come with caveats too; for example, a small explosion - likely not even strong enough to level a building based on the radius - was enough to destroy Lucy's horns, forcing her to revert back to Nyu, and while she can fight, she isn't going to be going directly for the kill in the same way Lucy would, nor will she possibly be in any condition to fight at all without the Vectors to help her.
So as of now, look at it this way: Lucy's Vectors can certainly outmuscle Carnage enough, but not only is he still faster than them at their best, but he's also powerful enough to hack up Lucy directly for a win, or at the very least, seriously injure her or maybe even hit a weak spot like the horns or the pineal gland to remove the Vectors entirely from the equation. This may seem like Carnage could easily go for a one-shot kill, but we'd be discounting the different ways Lucy and the Vectors can counter and his counters to those.
From the outset, Lucy's base strength - or at least what we can assume to be her base before she starts melting - isn’t going to be enough to really kill him per se with brute force. Carnage has survived too many fatal incidents at the hands of foes stronger than him to be put down for good with that level of power. Lost or destroyed limbs can be grown back relatively quickly within the span of a single fight, and more devastating injuries like being bisected by the Sentry did indeed take more time than usual, but Lucy would need to push herself to melting territory to output such strength.
At that point, it'd be feasible for her to pound Carnage into submission or blow him apart by vibrating her Vectors. Considering that they can produce enough heat/thermal energy to be comparable to dropping a nuke, this could allow her to abuse the symbiote's admittedly inconsistent weakness to fire if need be. A sustained assault like that could likely be too much for both Kasady and the symbiote to handle, and might give her the win if she's relentless enough; feasible given that out of the two of them, Lucy would be more likely to go straight for the kill.


She'd need that relentlessness, as it's pretty important that she wipe out Carnage in one go. Leaving Kasady alive would allow him to bleed and regrow the symbiote, which can then get to work on repairing his damage, so for her to absolutely ensure her victory, both have to be beaten past the point of no return.
She could surround herself in a Vector-based shield that Carnage can't break through and perform worldwide-ranged area-of-effect attacks that he'll have trouble avoiding consistently. He isn't a Diclonius and it's unclear if his rip-off Spider-Sense could allow him to detect their movements if he can't see them. Coupled with the range, he'll likely only be able to dodge so much against attacks he can't consistently read. Granted, Carnage will likely be able to deduce that he's fighting invisible forces that he won't be able to sense, but as Lucy can change their length, number and density freely, his ability to adapt is still sort of limited in this regard.
How can Carnage counter? Well, for one, he's still much faster than Lucy or her maxed Vectors, and could easily blitz Lucy herself before she can put the Vectors up to attack or defend, either to the point where she'd be dead, or at the very least seriously injured before throwing him away. Now, in this scenario, Lucy would adopt a more defensive stance and be more wary; this could lead to her using the Vectors' range and intangibility to her advantage as I've listed above.


Carnage can match that by either creating clones of himself which should be comparable to the main one or rely on projectile spam, which when combined with his speed means that Lucy might have a bit too much to defend from; best case scenario for her here would be that the Vectors null this altogether - worst would be that she gets tagged by the projectiles or dogged on by clones.
The speed should also help Carnage get in close with the chance to infect her with the symbiote, and from here, he has a very solid grip on the advantage ball. Depending on how much of the symbiote he can get on her via physical contact, he can likely trap her completely by not only surrounding her body with his biomass, but literally force-feed himself into her insides and even her bloodstream.


Oh, and there's also the matter of him eating away at her negative emotions to further increase the amount of biomass that is suffocating her body, putting Lucy on a time limit, not to mention all the mental torture that Carnage is going to put her through.
Can Lucy resist his mind hax? You could point to the time where she resisted the DNA Voice's attempt to control her body, but she was only able to do it for so long before she gave up; she herself stated that she and Nyu can only do so much to fight it. You can also point out Captain America being able to resist it even though he has no known means to do so, but take note that Carnage was controlling three other Avengers - including one Canucklehead who has mental barriers that should have defended him in such a scenario - in addition to the populace of an entire town, so such a slip up might be an indicator of his limits - limits he never hit when doing the same to one or two targets at a time, so this won't be a factor against Lucy.
But what if you say that Carnage's control is only physical, and Lucy is still aware of her actions? Surely she could command the Vectors to attack him while she's bound and eventually break out, right? A few problems arise.
Carnage would still be mentally torturing her, so even if Lucy was still aware of it, she'd be distracted and won't be able to reliably order the Vectors around. If she were able to break out of it and were able to command it against him, she'd unlikely be able to do enough lasting damage before the symbiote's biomass still continues to consume her or for him to recuperate. Even then, Lucy’s prior failure to suppress the DNA Voice in addition to previous instances of Carnage being able to mind hax one or two targets at a time more successfully should ensure that her ability to break out at all would be very limited.
In the event that she were to deduce that the symbiote was weak to fire and command the Vectors to vibrate at enough speeds to produce those explosions, consider that the worst case scenario for her at this point would involve her being covered head to toe in it while having it inside her body and bloodstream. She'd essentially have to nuke herself with roughly the same amount of force needed to kill Carnage to “free" herself, and as we've established that her body isn't as durable as the Vectors and she’d need to hit it with enough power to wipe him out of existence, that'd be tantamount to suicide.
Even if you decided to follow one other interpretation of the Vectors - that being that they are part of Lucy's body and thus the latter should be as durable as them, then Carnage would be free to control them too and either force them to stand down while he finishes Lucy off or have them tear her apart instead. True, he might not know what the Vectors are at first, but peering into Lucy's mind or taking a stray shot from them should tip him off.


Yes, I did say that his attack power wouldn't be enough to reliably do damage in this scenario (Carnage at town vs. Lucy being country), but when you're facing an opponent who cannot retaliate in any way, shape or form, you're free to wail on them until they expire. It'd also make it consistent with the idea that if Carnage wasn't going for the kill straight away - which, to be fair, he very well can - he'd torture Lucy before finishing her off. What is all of this if not torture?
So at this point, I've laid out a bunch of win conditions for both sides: Carnage has to go for a kill straight away or at least infect her for his hax to work, whereas Lucy has to get her Vectors on him and use their mad amount of power and range to essentially wipe him out of existence. All in all, who do I think could pull off a win first? That'll be Carnage.
Let’s look at it this way: neither side is going to go straight for the kill right away, nor can we say that they’ll use their respective trump cards - the symbiote possession or the maxed out Vectors - out the gate either. Carnage could hold a decent advantage at the beginning: Lucy isn’t likely to hit him with anything hard enough that would cripple him while he’d realize that he’s dealing with invisible stuff and adapt accordingly, not to mention that speed advantage to help him get closer and attack her body.


Assuming that Carnage doesn’t somehow manage to hit the pineal gland or break her horns to null the Vectors entirely, then both of them are going to start throwing out more of their stuff: his clones and projectiles vs. Lucy’s increasingly powerful and still undetectable Vectors. The Vectors’ increased range will definitely put Carnage on a loop, and if Lucy decides to add her explosions to the mix, then that messes with his speed and ability to tag her at all.
That still doesn’t change the fact that he only really needs one good hit to let the infection to basically rob her of any fighting chance. Vectors that could easily wipe him out? Eliminated from the equation or made enough of a non-issue that he can proceed to torturing Lucy further. The fractured mind of a homicidal teenager with little to no resistance against outside interference? Easy prey for a guy who mentally breaks people every now and then. The fact that Lucy is a homicidal teenager in and of itself? Oh, hi. Enjoy fighting an alien monster who literally feeds on negativity and will like to establish lodging inside your horribly messed up mortal coil.
There's absolutely no doubt that this fight is close, and with the debates that we've had have at least convinced me that either side can take the dub given how their win conditions are both within the realm of possibility. However, the way I see it: Carnage should at least have enough to edge him out a win if barely, so for now, I'm siding with him as the victor.

Malcolm Belmont


Fight Track Prediction: Bloody Requiem


Oh gee, i wonder who is going to voice Carnage “sees its Chris Guerreo”


Welp it’s over, Carnage has already lost. In all seriousness i kinda find it ironic that Chris previously voiced Bane who’s DEATH BATTLE opponent was Venom - now he’s voicing Carnage, his technical son. Anyway so about this fight coming up - Lucy vs Carnage - honestly i am surprised as how much debate has come out of the DEATH BATTLE community regarding this matchup - i thought that there would be little discussion, boy was i wrong.Since there is a lot of verdicts that are going to be made for his matchup - i am going to give this relatively short and sweet - but still want make it long enough to give my perspective on this matchup.


Now it’s time for EDDDGGGEEEE
Anyway, let’s talk about this fight - for what i’ve researched as well as discussions with the other members of the G1DBFB - this fight comes down to Destructive Capability and Durability vs Speed and Hax. With Lucy easily having the better Destructive Capability Feats (considering you know sank an island) compared to anything that Carnage has done and considering how Lucy’s vectors have survived missiles - that should easily put her durability higher than Carnage. On the other hand there is speed and oh boy does Carnage win this one. Even ignoring the classic Marvel Street Level Scaling to Massively Hypersonic+ and the fact he has managed to blitz Marvel Street Top Tiers such as Spider-Man and Venom should easily beat Lucy’s speed feats which aren’t as high (her best speed feats are bullet catching and bullet timing as well as the Vectors reaching outspace feat). So Carnage definitely has the speed.


So Lucy has the Destructive Capability and Durability while Carnage has the speed so..does Carnage have anything that can help him - one word: Versatility. Carnage’s ability to create a lot of different constructs and weapons made out of his Symbiote make him the far more versatile fighter. Lucy as a fighter really isn’t that versatile - basically relying on her vectors for combat (besides the occasional gun).


So Carnage has Speed and Versatility Edge while Lucy has the Destructive Capability and Durability edge.What this fight comes down to in my opinion is Carnage able to outlast Vectors with his speed and kill Lucy before the Vectors rip him apart and my answer is surprisingly no. Look while i definitely think Carnage has an okay shot at getting in and killing Lucy - the issue is that Lucy’s Vectors are the Perfect Offense Tool but also the Perfect Defensive Tool - in that Lucy can use her Vectors both have a attacking measure and as a defense measure - attacking and yet protecting at the same time. It’s going to be very hard for Carnage to get in even with the speed advantage since Lucy will be constantly protecting herself with the Vectors as well as attacking him at the same time.


Now i know what you may asking - “couldn’t Carnage simply destroy the vectors and then focus on Lucy herself”. The answer is a bit fat no - not only are Lucy’s Vectors far more durable than Carnage’s Destructive Capability (Town Level vs Multi City Block Level) but Lucy’s Vectors cannot be cut by Carnage plus i very much doubt that Carnage would attack the Vectors since they would be invisible to him.Meaning that during this fight Carnage will be trying to find an opening and failing to do.


While Carnage’s immense healing factor will allow him to tank some of the damage from Lucy’s vectors - eventually - it will get to the point where Carnage will continue to act more and more recklessly (he’s not really a straigest in the middle of battle - unlike Lucy) and even with Carnage’s superior speed - once Lucy’s Vectors rip Carnage apart it is game over for him. Don’t get me wrong i still think this fight is a very close one and i could honestly see DEATH BATTLE going either way for this one but - when i am researching a fight - i tend to look at the likest possible outcome for what would happen if these two fought and while i do think there are scenarios that could allow Carnage to beat Lucy - ultimately i think 8/9 times out of ten - Lucy would win in fight.


Based on the research i have done - i think Lucy overall has this but i really wouldn’t be surprised either way - looks like Lucy is going to give Carnage - a bloody bad time.




Strunton


Fight Track Name Prediction: Carnage Lilum

Well this is awkward. I have no clever way of introducing this verdict besides saying “Bring on the carnage!” so I guess I shouldn’t waste anymore time and get to the verdict. It’s an extremely long verdict anyway, so prepare thy booties.
This match is not an easy one to determine. Carnage and Lucy have plenty of advantages that could allow either to the win under the right circumstances. With that said, there’s a major factor that COULD possibly change the tides, but it’s impossible to determine if it would be successful or not, but I’ll talk more on that a little later.
So who do I think should win this? Lucy/Nyu/Kaeda/DNA Voice should win this in my opinion.
Carnage may be stronger than the likes of Spider-Man and Venom combined, which is impressive, but it’s nowhere close to the kind of power Lucy’s vectors have displayed, like creating a storm over the island of Enoshima or generating an explosion that sunk an entire island. And that was nowhere close to her full potential, which was threatening the entire country.


Carnage is faster, but utilizing that advantage against someone like Lucy is incredibly difficult, since Lucy’s vectors gives her complete control over the battlefield. Not only can she use them to create barriers more than strong enough to handle an assault from Carnage, but she can use them to attack him at the same time. There’s really nothing stopping Lucy from using her vectors to trap Carnage in a confined space to keep him from utilizing that advantage, especially when, at her maximum, a single vector can grow as long as a fudging country and as wide as a small state. And Lucy can summon 28 of these vectors at once? Yeah, there’s only so much dodging he can do. Oh yeah and Carnage CAN’T EVEN SEE the vectors, nor does he have a way to sense them. Can’t really dodge what you can’t see or know what’s coming your way, can ya?
And while I don’t think Carnage is a stupid combatant, his mental capacity doesn’t really go beyond torture, murder, torture, murder, with a few laughs along the way. Lucy has shown far more strategic thinking to overcome severe disadvantages, such as using her environment or the slightest distractions to gain the edge she needs to turn the tides, most notably against those who had far superior vectors to her own.
So remember how I said there’s a major factor in this fight that could turn the tides but there’s really no way of knowing if it would work? Yeah, let’s talk about that now.
Technically, there is a chance that Carnage could use his symbiote to control Lucy, there’s also not enough evidence to prove that this would work on someone like Lucy at the same time. The history of Carnage’s mind control and possession is VERY inconsistent. Sometimes, he can draw people into a mindscape, but elements of it contradict how it’s later displayed in later comics. For example, in issue 3 of Carnage USA, Captain America showed he was very mentally aware of what was happening while under Kasady’s control. If he didn’t, his sudden reaction wouldn’t have made any sense. But even then, him being able to resist possession in general is still a thing, and taking that into account just further complicates the manner of how you do it even more. Even Norman Osborn was able to rip off the Carnage symbiote through sheer willpower.


Why does all this matter? Well if Carnage were to somehow slip by Lucy’s defense and say...try to mind meld/possess her...well what would happen if he tries to do that with someone with split personalities? The answer? There is no answer, because this situation has never came up for someone with easily switched personalities that all have combat abilities. It is possible that it could affect every personality, but it’s also possible that it could only affect just one personality while the others remain unaffected.

So could it just affect one personality? When Nyu got knocked out, all it did was trigger the Lucy personality to take over. So if Lucy was knocked out or controlled, it COULD be possible that either the DNA voice or Nyu would take over, right? And then, when the DNA Voice took over Lucy's body, her Lucy and Nyu personality subconsciously affect it into not hurting their friends. So she might be able to subconsciously affect Carnage's control? But then at the same time, Lucy couldn't take total control back over the DNA Voice, and the DNA Voice is similar to the symbiote, seeing as both are a sinister force that drives a person to kill and can potentially control the wearer, so wouldn't that mean Carnage would dominate Lucy and Nyu? Maybe, but then again, what if the DNA Voice was factored into all of this? It's basically the same thing as Carnage, so would that, Nyu, and Lucy together be able to take back control as it is possible to do that through will?

Gah! All these unanswerable questions hurts my head. And I’m not even close to finishing this verdict! Well, I guess that’s what happens when you encounter a vs question that’s purely speculation with no definitive answer.
But, before I move on from the mind control portion of this verdict, I will mention that it is possible that Carnage might not even be able to use mind control anymore. It was mentioned in Superior Carnage Annual that the symbiote was neutered and Carnage wasn’t able to use a form of possession again until he got his hands on the Darkhold Book, which he doesn’t even have anymore. It’s still pure speculation but it’s just a little food for thought.

However, factoring in those advantages I mentioned for Lucy, along with the fact Carnage has to get close to infect her, and that he would prefer to torture her first, and the chances of him possessing her might not be that big.
Anyway, let’s address what’s perhaps the biggest reason Carnage fans say he should be able to win this fight; the healing factors. Carnage can heal from a single drop of blood, recovered from the Apocalypse Bomb, and survived being ripped in half by freaking Sentry...so how can Lucy kill him?
Well, I feel Carnage is getting way too much credit for those feats. First off, the Apocalypse bomb wasn't based on physical power. The bomb was going to specifically target people who didn't have the X gene, through some unexplained method. It's not a literal planet busting bomb as fans try to make it out to be. And besides, people seem to overlook that Carnage was left in pieces for a large time frame after this happened. Why does it matter? Because it shows that Carnage’s healing factor has limits and that incredibly powerful blows takes precious time to recover from. Even when Sentry casually tore Carnage in two and was discovered months later, he was still missing his lower torso and needed to replace his legs with cybernetics until he could regrow those legs.
Plus, Lucy has the means capable of exploiting one of Kasady’s biggest weaknesses. Fire.

And before you all start saying “but Carnage is resistant to fire!” Yes. Carnage is RESISTANT to fire, but that doesn’t grant him immunity. In fact, the only time the symbiote did have immunity to fire was when Norman’s goblin serum was enhancing it, but that only applies to when Norman wears it, because when it came off of Norman, Spider-Man outright INCINERATED it. Not to mention, plenty of examples regarding Carnage being "resistant" to heat, he's usually not in direct contact with the source of heat or near the epicenter of a given explosion. The examples where he does blatantly take a fire/heat based attacks, he's still clearly getting harmed by them. Symbiotes don’t go down easy, even when hit with their weakness, so of course they don’t just die when getting hit once by their weakness. Ya don’t just beat a drum next to Venom and the symbiote just falls off.

But anyway, how is Lucy capable of exploiting the heat weakness? Well, do you remember that scene from the manga where Lucy generated an explosion that released a massive amount of neutrons?Well, in order to do that, Lucy had to have generated an explosion that split apart a large amount of atoms! Now the exact details of how she did this are unclear. Either the explosions she causes are so powerful that it split tons of atoms appart, or perhaps the vectors themselves vibrate so fast they themselves have their atoms split in a manner similar to nuclear fission, causing a release of energy that makes an explosion. But considering she can already vibrate her vectors at speeds intense enough to generate explosions, it's most likely the latter. Either way, no matter how she does it, what matters is that she’s capable of generating explosions comparable to a hecking nuclear bomb.

Now to be fair, could Kasady probably survive one explosion? I doubt it but I’ll be nice and give him credit taking a consecutive amount from 28 country long, invisible vectors he can't even see that can take up the width of over half of the United States if she placed them side by side? What would that look like exactly?


Yeah, I doubt there’s going to be anything left for Kasady to recover from. And before one of you says “but uh, they become visible when she vibrates them to explode.” Well nothing is stopping her from encasing Carnage while they’re invisible and then vibrating them to become visible and explode, so that argument is kind of moot.
“But wouldn’t using that kind of power melt her body if she uses that kind of power constantly?”

Yeah? Lucy can still tap into a large amount of power to overwhelm Carnage without hurting herself, her powers don’t get any weaker while melting (considering it’s her maxing out her power, it’s stronger than before), she could still sustain prolonged fighting to the point of becoming a puddle, and she ultimately stopped fighting because she purposely let someone kill her. Plus, it doesn’t negate a single one of the previous advantage, so it’s not really that strong of an argument for a match like this.
Phew. That was long. So let’s go ahead and sum up the advantages each combatant hold as well as what’s not so clear-cut/pretty much up to interpretation.
  • Faster than Lucy and her vectors
  • Durability and healing does let him in hang in there
  • Technically, if Carnage got up close, he could technically suffocate her or consume her biomass
  • Vectors range and size gives Lucy complete control over the battlefield
  • Carnage cannot see nor sense Lucy’s vectors
  • Lucy’s atom splitting explosions exposes Kasady’s weakness to heat
  • Defenses are stronger than Carnage
  • Quicker to go for the kill
  • Much more strategic combatant
  • Raw power is more than enough to overwhelm the healing factor
WHAT’S NOT CLEAR: It's unclear how Carnage's possession/mind control would affect someone with split personalities like Lucy, and if Lucy being able to switch between personalities could counter this, especially when one of them if basically another form of Carnage. Would that allow her to take control back of her body? Would Carnage's influence affect one personality or all of them at the same time. There's no true answer.
It's also unclear if Carnage still possesses his mind controlling powers anyway, as he might have lost it when the symbiote's powers were neutered, which is why he didn't use a form of possession until getting his hands on the Darkhold Book, which he doesn't have anymore.
In the end, Lucy’s vectors are going to leave a massive amount of carnage behind her.

NocturnBros
Track title prediction: Bloodstained Lilies
Alrighty, once again, I’ve been invited to this blog! Big thanks to Malcolm and the rest of the team for giving me this opportunity.
With that being said, let me state my thoughts on this match-up. I really like this idea. It’s unusual, and it uses two characters I’m very fond of. I lowkey wanted Carnage to fight Crona from Soul Eater, but Lucy works very well too, so I’m not mad at all.
Initially, I thought this match was insanely close, but after giving Elfen Lied’s manga a thorough read, and looking into the nature of Carnage’s abilities, I’ve realized that it’s actually kind of one-sided. But in whose favor? Well. That’ll become obvious soon enough.
Let’s start by analyzing the stat trinity. Now, there is something very important that people tend to forget: Powerscaling in comic books does not work in the same way as it does for other media. Given the many inconsistencies created by allowing different authors to tackle the same characters, we can get a lot of absurd feats for characters that have been established to be much below the range of those feats. Sadly, Carnage is a common victim of this issue. People use shit like fighting Nova, Sentry, Iron Man’s higher-tier armors, and other miscellaneous examples of Marvel writers not knowing the meaning of consistency. But anyone even remotely acquainted with how tiering systems work for comic book characters knows that basically all of Spider-Man’s rogues are all within one tier, rendering all those inconsistencies outliers. The accurate level that the deceptively-named “street level” Marvel characters are is MCB+/Small Town Level, thanks to a kinetic energy performed by Spidey himself, where he carried Hulk while travelling at a speed superior to Mach 400. The widely accepted calculation for this feat gives us a 1.271 kiloton yield. Given the nature of the feat, it scales to Spider-Man’s durability. Carnage often fights Spidey, so it’s a no-brainer that he should scale.
As for speed, Marvel’s street levelers have a wide array of feats in the Massively Hypersonic+ range, with Spidey himself having a Mach 7535 feat. There’s a fuckton of other feats on that speed tier, but that one’s the most notable for good ol’ Hyphen-Man.
Lucy’s side is a bit more complex due to how some of her feats work, but at least there’s not any scaling to be done whatsoever. In AP, there’s a few major feats that matter, with the least important and most casual being one where she drills an extremely deep hole through many floors of bedrock and iron that end up being enough to completely sink a small island. The calcs for this feat get us a 74 kiloton yield, which is Town level.
A bit low, but she has better stuff anyway. The next feat we have to look at is one where her vectors generate a decently large storm. Now, before you ask what signs the are that the storm was caused by Lucy’s vectors, the answer is simple. In Page 15, there’s no storm, and in the next one, when Lucy’s vectors appear, the storm begins. The only problem is that there is no direct calc for this feat so, uh, fuck. Buuuuut anyways, there is one last AP feat that’s worth mentioning. By the time Lucy is pissed enough to let her vectors rampage throughout the world, her vectors grow long enough to dwarf the USA, with their side-by-side thickness being enough to fill more than half of the country. So by sheer size alone, Lucy’s vectors are at least Country level, but given the size of the USA, they could be Continental.


In the same panel where the vectors grow that large, they also manage to reach just below the atmosphere in a matter of seconds. There isn’t a specific timeframe for this feat, but after inputting the words that Lucy said during her rampage through a text to speech calculator, we got 8 seconds. Given that timeframe and the length that they covered (2,767 miles), we get Mach 1622, which is Massively Hypersonic+.
Now, before moving onto the ability-specific arguments, there is something I want to address first. Some people claim that Lucy’s vectors should not scale to her durability because they’re “telekinetic”.


First: They’re blatantly not telekinetic. They are invisible arms that come from her body, not a non-corporeal force. I don’t care that everyone calls them telekinesis, because that’s the opposite of what they are.


Secondly: By the end of the series, the main antagonist of the series says that her body’s energy can’t endure the overuse of the energy of her vectors. Now this could be used as an argument against the durability scaling, but considering that it refers to the overuse of Lucy’s upper limit, it only supports the fact that her body is able to endure that same energy. The reason why her body was melting when she performed her highest feat was because she was explicitly abusing the vectors on purpose so she could use her own flesh to heal Kouta’s wounds. So with that in mind, I vehemently believe that Lucy’s AP and durability are the same.
With the Stat Trinity out of the way, we can finally address the rest of the arguments.
By using his superior speed and possession, the Carnage symbiote could potentially try to infect Lucy. But there is a major problem with this argument. The victims of Carnages possession are always conscious when possessed, as Carnage’s goal during those instances was to drive them crazy and make them a lot more violent, and Captain America was able to break free from its grip by will alone. If Steve Rogers, who is only a standard Marvel street leveler is capable of breaking out of Carnage’s grip, Lucy, whose strength far surpasses the level of that tier, should be able to do so as well. Not to mention that if she got possessed, it would do nothing but create an even more intense bloodlust in her, which would only spell out doom for Carnage. The only possible advantage that Carnage could get from possessing Lucy would be learning about how vectors work, but that sort of strategic thinking is unusual in Cletus, whose only real combat strategy boils down to “RIP AND TEARRRRRRR!”
But if Carnage’s only real shot at winning relies on something that he needs to get close to use, he’s pretty screwed, as Lucy’s vectors outrange and overpower Carnage casually, not to mention that Carnage can’t even see them. And before you say “Spider-Sense”, no. Carnage’s bootleg Spider-Sense merely functions as 360º vision, not actual precognition that warns Cletus of invisible threats.
Another possible hurdle would be Carnage’s regeneration, which is much better than Lucy’s, but there is also an easy counter for this. Lucy’s vectors are able to create explosions of a nuclear nature, as they split atoms in the same way that occurs during fission. The Carnage symbiote is particularly vulnerable to fire and sound. Nuclear explosions have overwhelming amounts of both of those things. All it takes is just trapping Carnage with vectors, detonating them, and bye bye symbiote. No symbiote = No regeneration.
You could also use phasing as an argument in this case, but I feel like that’s not really important, since the symbiote’s regeneration would most likely heal major organs in situations like these.
Being honest, I think Strunton explained my arguments better than I could, but oh well.
Overall, I just… don’t really see how Carnage has any chances of winning this unless you use blatant outliers. It’s a shame that one of my favorite Marvel characters is so screwed while all the ones I didn’t care for got their victories, but oh well. You win some, you lose some. Lucy is pretty cool on her own, too. I’d definitely recommend her series (but the manga is better than the anime), the gore isn’t really that intense. Berserk is much more brutal, tbh. I have a feeling that most people who argue in favor of Carnage didn’t really look into the context of the feats from either side, but that’s their problem, not mine.
I predict that the one walking away alive from this match will be Lucy.

Animator3003
Fight track prediction:  Lied des Gemetzel (for you non-bretzel men out there it means “Song of Slaughter”)
Alright... before I state any of my opinions about this fight I just want to say some words. First, that I feel  incredibly humbled to be in this blog once again, this has been my third time already helping the G1DBFB with any of their matches and each time I feel nothing but respect and admiration for these people, so I feel honored to be helping them once again.


Secondly I want to thank the people whom I helped (as little as I could) with this blog, through the course of these weeks I have seen the sheer love and passion that these people put into analysing and interpreting what these character had to offer, and it’s absolutely amazing to see the dedication these people show, which is nothing short of amazing, I tried to keep up as best as I could, but at the end Strunt, Nocturn, Ramonzer and many, many others that deserve the credit tenfold over me.


And finally, I just want to say thanks to the people who read these, ya’ll are the best, but without any further do, let's get into this fight shall we ?
So… Carnage vs Lucy, that's an unexpected one, can’t say I saw it coming, but can’t say I’m disappointed either, Elfen Lied is a cool manga and Carnage is well… motherfucking Carnage, so when the announcement came, needless to say that I was rather Interested, and once the analysis and debates started taking place I got legitimately excited, why ? well, let me explain.
For starters I will say that the fact that I’m writing this verdict at all is a testament to just how difficult it was for me to choose how really wins the fight, there’s a lot of factors, ideas and interpretations that can be had about it, so I had a pretty difficult time leaning towards a character, so much in fact that I won’t really mind if they go the other way. But after weeks of seeing the members discuss, asking my own questions and making a lot (and I do mean a metric fuck-ton) of notes, I do find myself leaning a bit more towards Carnage myself...Now let me explain why.

As I said before, this fight depends on a lot of stuff, and it can honestly go either way depending on how much interpretation and benefit-of-the-doubt comes into play, so regardless of who finally ends up taking it in the episode I won’t really mind, but lets look at what we do know are facts:
  • 1st: Carnage boast a much higher speed (by feats and scaling he should comfortably sit around 5k-7k) and his symbiote gives him a wide range of abilities that can catch Lucy off guard not to mention his stupidly broken regen.
  • 2nd: Lucy boasts a much higher DC and Dura with her vectors, especially when she goes into her final form BUT, this will kill her in the long run. However she can entirely bypass the symbiote, and potentially overwhelm Carnage’s healing before she kills herself, if she even needs to go final form at all.
Now all of these sound fine and dandy, nothing different from what you’ve read up to this point, so... that means the devil must lie within the very small details.


First and foremost, let’s talk Vectors, because when you really get down to it, this fight isn't really “Carnage vs Lucy” its “Carnage vs Lucy’s Vectors” so for that to be a thing, we must first know what the vectors really are. There was a lot of discussion amongst the people of this blog as to what those things where... are they some form of TK ? are they extension of her body ? Do they simply exist to make our life miserable ? Well… Maybe, maybe and totally, but as I looked at them I’ve reached a couple conclusions.
One, that we do know that they are a part (key word here) of Lucy (probably due to their larger pea-brain thing making then somewhat telekinetic in nature). And two... that Lucy shouldn’t really scale to them…She’s strong don’t get me wrong, the hits she has directly taken from enemy vectors are rather impressive, but not so much as her own, and her reliance on using them as shields shows that she needs them as an extra layer for stronger attacks, and even if she does use it, they doesn’t guarantee full protection, like the missile previously shown in the feats section.


And why the deal with these topics you say ? Well, because Carnage has ways around them, yes, it is true that Carnage does not possess a 100% way of seeing/sensing or predicting the Vectors themselves, but what he does have are ways to survive them long enough to understand them, even then, in some occasions it is possible to feel the vectors as they pass by. This, at least for me, are indicators that Carnage does have some possible ways to at least know he’s fighting an invisible and intangible being… But don't get me wrong, he’s gonna get hit a LOT, and really, really hard, but that's when my other 2 points come.
Lucy’s Vectors give her a tremendous advantage when it comes to controlling the pace of the match and how Carnage has to approach, but he has a single advante that turns the whole thing 180°, speed, Carnage’s speed is much faster than Lucy can feasibly react to, and even if she went full power it aint enough to can’t catch the guy, and while Lucy can and probably will abuse the ability to make them explode, this is the only moment where he could actually see them, even if they were right in front of his face his speed is more than enough to get the hell out of there before they do significant damage… Sadly this is not all dandy and Carnage is bound to get hit more than once, he may be able to “feel” them, but it isn’t perfect, and yes he’s fast, but its complicated to dodge something you can’t see, but this is when the other thing comes in.
Carnage is pretty hard to kill… That's a fact, the way his symbiote works allows him to survive and take hits from people way higher than he reasonably is (symbiotes tend to do that a lot) yes Lucy can dismantle him like a ragdoll in case she does catch him, but unless you rip him with Sentry levels of power then it's gonna be pretty difficult to permanently put him down for good, his normal weakness to sound has faded with time similar to Venom, leaving fire as his only true exploitable weakness, which Lucy can totally take advantage off thanks to her Nuke-hands, but I'm pretty sure that regen and the fact he can take hits from heroes like Sunfire and Spidey, add to that with the speed-gap AND STILL, he has ability that I haven’t even mentioned in here that could help him further, like his ability to control mini-version, of himself, create clones and even move like a mono-filament ? guarantee that he can potentially outlast her enough so that she kills herself  for going all out… or in the best of cases, find an opening and get a hit…
(TL:DR….This is basically how the fight is gonna go for the most part, with the Mosquito being Carnage and Saitama being Lucy’s vectors.)
But what does happen if Carnage gets a hit ? Well… As much as I would love to say “he sends her straight to the Shadow Realm” it is a tad more complicated... first off, there are several things that could happen if such an interaction happens, but I will do my best to quickly describe what happens in each:
  • 1st.- Carnage gets a solid hit: Then Lucy is sustaining pretty heavy damage, as I’ve said before, lucy is durable herself but her shields and vectors do most of the defensive work, and if we scale her to enemy vectors she is not strong enough to sustain it without damage, even the fact that a stray hit could even break her horns is especially concerning, as them breaking can grant him a OHKO if needed be, so this is the most straightforward, but its his best shot, as he does have the tools to do so.
  • 2nd.- Carnage hits and tries mind fuckery: well, then in my humble opinion, Lucy is royally screwed, mostly because even if we want to argue that Lucy managed to escape the DNA’s voice… she really didn’t, she just stopped her from destroying one spot and even that took a lot of her, in contrast Carnage has taken possession of characters like the Thing and Wolverine, the latter having proof of having mental blocks to prevent this sort of stuff, so it's clear that Carnage can give more of a punch that Lucy can resist, take into account he can actually feed of madness/negative emotions and gain more biomass while doing so,and if he does, is still a solid win imo.
  • 3rd.- He fails and gets hit: then he either regens or moves away with superior speed… However that would mean that Lucy is gonna get more defensive, making his win-condition harder, but not impossible.
In the end, what are my thoughts about the fight ? It may seem that with my verdict I think Carnage will just 100% dodge everything and get the first blood 99.999% of the time, but I can’t clarify enough that this is pretty damn close fight, recently before this was written some multi-continental calcs were presented for Lucy. I’m sadly going to be that guy and say that I don't fully agree for a couple of reasons (more specifically KE output in assumed timeframes) but, I still say that in the end they wouldn't change much, Lucy can still rip Carnage appart,  nuke him, burn him and send him into Alpha-Centauri if she desires with her current output. And that's totally viable and plausible, I can’t say it enough times, this fight is pretty darned close, and whats makes it exciting !
But in the end, his superior speed, frankly absurd regen and the fact that he potentially only needs one good hit to take it makes me lean towards him a bit more…
Again, this is just my shitty internet opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
In the end, I think Carnage has what it takes to snatch the win.

PineappleGuy Carmine
Fight Track Prediction: Alien Queen (Alien Symbiote/Diclonius Queen)
Nice to be invited to the blog for the first time as one of the guys who’s looked into Lucy before hand. Thanks to ramonzer0 for signing me on as well as everyone on the blog today.
So let’s get down to it and decide just which one of these psychopaths is gonna be walking away in this fight.
I will be backing Carnage here, despite wanting Lucy to win.
Now before I continue, let’s get one contentious point straight here. Lucy in no way scales to her Vectors. They are an invisible, intangible force that is not only controlled, but generated by the brain as well. They can even be shut off by attacking a gland in her brain or her horns without interacting with the arms themselves. Blatantly not a physical part of her natural body, even if they have the shape of arms. She does have decent physical stats though, just not up to the level of her Vectors.
With all that said, it aides Carnage by giving an extra win condition with his already available ways to win.
1st: Carnage is able to sustain the damage from the Vectors and get in the killing blow.
2nd: Carnage is able to tag Lucy and use his possession ability to take control of her body.
3rd: Carnage survives long enough, makes it to Lucy’s all out attack and uses his regen to outlast her until she dies from melting.
Now let’s unpack these. The third option is a pretty tall order, even for someone with regen like Carnage’s. Honestly doubt even he could pull it off with the now massive AOE the Vectors now hold over him. So that one is realistically not going to happen as far as I’m concerned.
So how about win conditions one and two? Well, those are pretty possible from what I’ve seen. Both involve getting close enough to Lucy, which means Carnage has to navigate through a flurry of Vectors. He indeed does not possess a means of sensing them, however he doesn’t really need to. Symbiotes including Carnage are consistently able to get back up from hits above anything he’s shown with his own stats, not because he’s on their level, but because the symbiote regen is just that dang good, especially Carnage’s. He will eventually get to her, even if he has to take a beating to do it, this isn’t even bringing up his abilities, or projectiles fast enough to give guys like Spider-Man trouble. Even if he just has enough time to tag Lucy instead of outright kill her, he still has the possession on his side, which even if only controlling the physical body, would still distract Lucy long enough for Carnage to get in some type of offensive damage (also if you think Vectors are a part of her physical body that she scales too, there’s no reason why he couldn’t control them as well or nullify them completely).
Final points are about Carnage’s weaknesses in this fight. First off, Lucy’s explosions would seem like trouble with Carnage’s heat weakness, but I stand by him surviving blasts from Sunfire, may appear to have weakened him a bit, but nowhere near enough to go down, these hits are from a guy above standard Lucy too. Secondly, there would be both his psychotic tendencies that wouldn’t make him go right for the kill and Lucy’s all out assault if it comes out. Lucy is pretty set for killing Cletus if she had the power of her final attack. Problem is, she’s even less likely to whip it out than Cletus is to go for a quick kill. The only reason she pushed herself beyond her limits in the first place was psychological stress of what just happened to Kouta and her blaming the world because of it, not because she couldn’t win a fight. I firmly believe Carnage will be pushed to ditching his torturous tendencies before Lucy is pushed to her ultimate attack. Lucy would likely use her intelligence to try and form a strategy to beat Carnage, rather than just power up against some random opponent she has no connection to. She doesn’t fear her death nearly as much as the death of the only man she’s ever loved, which is shown as she tries to give up her life both right before she powered up and during the freakout, which resulted in her canonical death, both for Kouta. Leading me to my belief that if we are using in character personalities as weaknesses, it hinders Lucy far more than Carnage.
Although I think this is handily a Carnage win, this battle is debatable purley by how you interpret the information of both, which is a nice change of pace for Death Battle, which usually has straight forward battles just based off stats. Overall, I think Carnage edges out with his superior speed, regeneration, hax, and overall versatility.
In the end, Cletus Kasady is gonna leave behind Maximum Carnage. (bad pun)
Brobuscus
Soundtrack prediction: Bloody Carnage(IDK, best I could come up with)
I may have missed out on Jack VS Afro, but I’m back now to talk about a Marvel character and an anime character that I’m just figuring out exists

yeah, this was a bad idea

Anyway, Carnage VS Lucy. A fight I doubt anyone expected or wanted. Carnage is a super highly requested character, even from Ben & Chad. But the only options I’ve heard for the guy are Alex Mercer from ProtoType and Darth Maul from Star Wars. But Lucy is not a match I saw requested, and like I said before, this matchup’s announcement is what introduced me to Lucy & Elfen Lied in general.

I should also point out that I did practically nothing to help out researching Lucy and focused my attention more on Carnage, and even then, I didn’t do a whole lot. So, if I screw up anything on either character, I do apologize.

Anyways, with my history on both franchises laid down, you’d think I’d be supporting Carnage for this fight, right?

Well, yeah, I am.

Let’s get the big stuff out of the way. Strength, Speed, and Durability.

Strength wise, Lucy should have the edge due to sinking an island with her Vectors, but much like Akuma, this doesn’t reach Island Level, rather around Town, given the size of the Island. However, this is still above Carnage, who is only around Multi-City Block at least. So, pretty clear cut advantage for Lucy there.

Speed wise, quite simply, Lucy is COMPLETELY outclassed in every way, shape, and form. Lucy’s best speed feats only put her at around Mach 1K at best. Which is impressive, but Mach 5K exists for characters in Marvel MUCH slower than Carnage. Even Spider-Man, who Carnage scales to, has feats ranging to around Mach 7K, over 7 times faster than Lucy. So good luck catching him.

Durability wise, this is where things get tricky. There’s a lot of debate going on around whether or not Lucy’s Vectors are telekinetic or not. If they’re not, then she has the durability edge due to what I said before. If they are, then Carnage has the edge via showing off much better durability feats and scaling than Lucy has ever shown.

This leads into the Vectors debate. The Vectors are invisible arms that sprout from her back. The problem is that they’re controlled via the horns on her head, and are also attached to a part of her brain. So, the Vectors are essentially mentally controlled, invisible arms.

In my eyes, the whole “Mentally controlled” bit kinda blatantly points to them being telekinesis and not physical.

Either way, it helps give Carnage a leg up. If they are telekinetic, then Lucy’s durability doesn’t scale to her Vectors, and Carnage can take her out pretty quickly assuming he can get around her Vectors. As Carnage has a massive speed advantage, and his own variation of the Spider-Sense, I think he’s got that covered.

However, if Lucy’s Vectors are NOT telekinesis, then while yes, Lucy’s way tougher to kill, there’s still one thing Carnage can do, and that’s to control his victims to either control their movements or other NSFW stuff. If Lucy’s Vectors aren’t telekinetic, then Carnage would be able to have complete and total control over them. If they are telekinetic, then while yes, Carnage wouldn’t be able to figure out what they are unless he peered into her mind(which IIRC, he doesn’t possess the ability to do so), he also wouldn’t really have to control her if he can just kill her on the spot provided he can get past the Vectors.

Now, let’s talk about the end game feat from Elfen Lied, where Lucy spawns more Vectors and is able to wrap them around the planet. Now, I do believe this could take Carnage out, but if she uses all of her Vectors, it leaves her wide open for Carnage to go in for the brutal kill. Even regardless of that, this ability also overwhelmed Lucy’s body and legitimately killed her, so.......yeah.

In the end, while you could very easily make an argument for Lucy to win(as people above me have already), I personally feel like Carnage’s speed, hax, and senses should be enough to take Elfen Lied’s young female serial killer out.
I predict the winner of this fight to be Marvel’s psychotic symbiote, Carnage.
Tsubori
Soundtrack name prediction: Uhh…. Symbiotic Vectors…?
Holy hell, you buggers can type some essays on this one. Ultimately, being at the end, I can mostly point upwards towards several arguments made above, but that’s a bit hard when this one’s so split. Carnage’s speed and regen against Lucy’s raw strength and vectors. This has been a pretty debatable fight overall, with a lot of important questions and answers being given by either side. All I can do at this point is address some of these questions with how I think it works.


We’ll start with a few key ones, being whether or not Carnage can detect the Vectors. I believe the answer to be no. While Carnage has a spider sense, it isn’t the same as Peter’s and it more like expanded view around him, being able to see from any point of the symbiote. Useful for seeing things you’d otherwise not be able to see, but not good enough to see something specifically stated to be invisible.


Next question, can Carnage just speedblitz Lucy? In this case, the answer is yes, but he wouldn’t. Carnage toys with people, and never really intends to end fights all that quickly, so Lucy will be more than capable of having some of her stronger defenses up by the time he actually moves in for the kill. And in this case, some of her best defenses make Carnage need to go through a state-sized invisible maze just to reach her.
Now, another key question is what happens if Carnage gets by the vectors. In that case, Lucy is hella dead. I don’t think there’s much Lucy can really do against some of Carnage’s attacks without her vectors, and his possession and such would do a pretty good job of killing Lucy.


And ultimately one of the most important questions. Can Lucy actually take Carnage out at all? This is the question that determines if there’s a fight here at all, and it isn’t just Lucy delaying the inevitable. And the answer to this question is yes. I don’t really think the answer lies in her hitting him or cutting him, but one particular attack. The Vector nukes are Lucy’s best and.. More or less only shot in this fight, as it uses Carnage’s weakness to fire/heat, and has the power to end him. Not in base form, mind you, but if Lucy uses her strongest Vectors and nukes him with a bunch of those, he’s done.


So, with this fight I’ve been back and forth on, it ultimately comes down to if Carnage can get in on Lucy before Lucy decides to nuke Carnage. Even with his speed advantage, when blocked in by vectors, he isn’t going to have anywhere to go, and it’d leave him dead. So I believe Carnage’s personality closes this out for him, in my opinion. He’s far too playful, and doesn’t move in for the kill. If he did, there’s a good chance his vastly better speed would be able to down Lucy before she could bring up her better defenses. But as it stands, once Lucy takes the fight seriously, her vectors get to a size Carnage just can’t deal with. If she just lays them all down and nukes Carnage, there’s really not too much he could DO about that. With that meager explanation in comparison to some of the above novels, I have to put my imaginary money on Lucy.

Grand Bitcher
Fight Track Name Prediction: Lies of Carnage
A Spiderguy finally goes up against someone who isn’t related to that one boujee dude who got killed by that guy in the high quality fursuit earlier in the year. Fingers crossed for something just a little more tame next time around though. Like Green Goblin. Or Black Cat. Or Lizard. Just… keep them away from Batpeople (even though I know Felicia won’t be doing that).

Oh yeah and Elfen Lied. Didn’t know what that was before that trailer. And I wish I still didn’t because that shit was fucked. Not crazy on that super blood and gore stuff. Literally only here cuz the debate looked interesting and I like to get in on Spiderfellas, even though I know very little about Carnage. Also because it was a golden opportunity to show off that dank song I linked for my verdict. Click it it’s good I swear. And spoiler alert for those of you who haven’t been counting, but I’m also the tie-breaking verdict, along with as usual being the least familiar with all sides of the debate.

So woooo. No pressure to be the one who decides if we called the episode or not. Time to do the classic GB thing of making this shit up as I go and figuring out my vote as I type.

What a miracle that these guys even keep me around.
Okay so from what I’ve gathered everywhere, this is a match between Carnage’s speed and hax VS Lucy’s DC and durability. Now, based off general gist of things, I’d initially give it to Lucy in the same vein of Kenshiro and Sora beating their opponents. They may be fast, sure, but they aren’t gonna be able to take down someone who can take them out in one good blow and won’t be able to be damaged super well.

The difference here is that Lucy can’t really take Carnage out in that “one fell swoop” due to his healing factor patching him right back up. Plus, Kasady has the means to infect her with the symbiote and control her if he manages to tag her at all. So to be more specific, it’s Carnage’s speed, survivability and infection VS Lucy’s power and durability. Both have the means to survive numerous blows, and both have the means to take the other out. So let’s take a look at those means, I suppose.
Now I’m not gonna say that Carnage is gonna be regenerating from drops of blood in matters of seconds, but I don’t think there’s anything Lucy has that can truly put Carnage down “permanently”, just that there’s maybe enough that she can do for us to say that Carnage is out long enough for the fight to be over. But she’s gonna have to fuck him up real good to pull that off. Which I think is pretty possible, given her options. I don’t really think the “destroying Kasady’s organs” argument is one that I’ll be sticking with, just on the basis of I don’t think there’s much to Carnage besides his human-like shape that he changes very frequently to really make him seem like he has organs. Is that weird to say? I hope not. The other stuff like a dozen country-sized Vector arms all aimed at one target or the atom splitting would probably work well enough though. So let’s give her those two win conditions.
For Carnage, I think he’s a bit like a Jojo character in terms of VS. He doesn’t have the power and durability of his opponents, but he can take them out through speed and hax. If he can tag Lucy with the symbiote infection and get it into her somehow, that’ll get him the control he needs to take her out too. But based off my gut feeling and seeing what’s been going on in the chats, I’m gonna give this fight over to Lucy. If I’m comparing Carnage to being a bit of a Jojo character, I suppose I’ll say that Lucy is like Kenshiro in that case. After all, she still manages to keep DC, durability, and a one-hit KO move on her side, and I think she ultimately has less to overcome in order to win.
For Carnage to infect Lucy, he has to try and get past over a dozen arms several feet long that can be used both as a shield and to attack at the same time, and he can’t see or even sense them at all. I find it hard for one to say “he can infect her before she can react to him” when she doesn’t really need to react to him due to her Vectors constantly being up to protect her. I’m sure he’d take no real issue with just rushing through her defenses, getting torn to pieces and just scratching her with his disembodied head and arm, but I don’t see him getting that chance very much.
Or lemme rephrase that. I don’t see him getting that chance before Lucy just goes all out and makes a dozen arms the size of a country all aimed towards Carnage. His regen is good, but I don’t think he’s gonna make it out of that kind of a mess quick enough for us to say he can keep going. And while the atom splitting may eliminate the whole “invisible arms” part of the argument, they’re still gonna be fairly difficult to dodge given their size, and Lucy has the smarts to use them at a point when Carnage isn’t going to be escaping them, and can just keep them invisible until that point. And once you get to the atom slicing, I think there’s gonna be just a bit too much heat for him to handle.

Sure hope I didn't just kill the prediction record we just got back. Now lemme check and see what puns haven’t been used yet aaaaand…

Looks like Lucy is gonna Elfen Lied Carnage to one bloody ending.
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