(Original artist unknown)
Before the Verdicts
Bayonetta
Three Bayonettas
To keep things simple, Bayonetta 3 implies all three mainline Bayos are different. It is noted the three experienced similar events, and the game director chose to leave the situation ambiguous when asked in Game Informer. Regardless, they merge at the end of the game, so using abilities for the three for blog purposes is fine.
Bayonetta Cosmology
(Bayonetta: Into the Bayo-Verse)
Bayonetta’s cosmology is three different realities, which were split from the original universe by a cosmic event called the First Armageddon. After the split, Paradiso, Inferno, and the World of Chaos/Human Realm came to be. The World of Chaos further split, becoming a stacked multiverse of infinite parallel universes. In Bayonetta 2 it is also revealed that time itself reflects infinitely, being in reference to the infinite timelines/universes Aesir would oversee from his dimension that existed above them, to which Luka mentions that there are endless possibilities. At minimum the multiverse has 2,043 universes, and going by the numbering system showing the universes in Bayonetta 3, at least 4,886 of them. The World of Chaos also has multiple layers.
The multiverse is supported upon a dimensional bulk called Ginnungagap, the void that encompasses all worlds, like how Earth is enveloped by the universe. The worlds themselves are like grains of sand inside of which form into the platforms dimensional travelers cross on, as shown here.
The three realities are layered on each other and they all have different Spiritual Energy running through them. Paradiso is noted to be thousands of times larger than the Human Realm/World of Chaos. Paradiso has its own cosmos. Inferno is comparable to Paradiso and is possibly Queen Sheba herself.
Higher Dimensional Bayonetta
Bayonetta has two arguments for higher dimensionality. This section will cover both.
The Bayonetta 3 artbook gives more on the realm Ginnungagap:
GINNUNGAGAP
YUKI SUDA (Artist): I imagined the bottom of the sea as a space encompassing multiple parallel worlds; like the universe around the Earth. Bits and pieces of the worlds' memories pile up like sand, until they crystallize into floating islands. The magic drifts, gathers, and wanders like sea creatures. This is basically like the loading screens of the Bayonetta games.
YUSUKE MIYATA (Director): In fact, Ginnungagap is the full realization of the world in the loading screens, where players practice their moves! You could say that the loading screens are traveling the multiverse through Ginnungagap.
Ginnungagap is basically a dimensional bulk supporting the infinite multiverse and is far larger than it. Ginnungagap encompasses all infinite parallel worlds, in a similar vein to how our universe encompasses the earth, and the universes are like small islands in it. Since there's an infinite multiverse embedded in that space, the argument would be that the only way to be bigger than infinity is for it to be a greater set of infinity, in which case it be considered a higher dimensional bulk. Singularity is shown destroying Ginnungagap when it destroys the multiverse.
The notion of it being a higher dimensional bulk is at least somewhat explored, though the game never flat out says this. It is at least a bit more viable than the following argument.
In Bayonetta 2 we are told that the universe/World of Chaos has layers to it. Aesir’s temple, the ground of Fimbulventr, and even the mechanisms that are powered by Loki all depict diamonds that represent these layers.
The issue here saying these are dimensions is the keyword “matrix”. They are all components of the same dimension/reality, they are not depicted or stated to be higher dimensional. It's also likely a mistranslation:
There is a mark that symbolizes it. Its crest is carved all over the city.
It's shaped like a combination of rhombuses, and it seems that each overlapping rhombus represents the origin of each era and the universe.
Some of Aesir's crests are made of metal that emits a mysterious glow, and it is said that they have some deep meaning, but it seems that it will take a little more time to solve the mystery.
In the end Ginnungagap holds some possibility, but the diamonds do not.
Bayonetta’s “Weaknesses”
Bayonetta is assumed by some to be a glass cannon, and that her demons are her only power. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Bayonetta actively is shown further empowering her own demons, and going toe to toe with powerful angels and demons by herself. She’s taken powerful attacks from Loptr, which oneshotted her own demons. Bayonetta also can only have her soul ripped when her energy is drained and her Umbran Watch is damaged. Jeanne was only soul ripped when caught off guard in Bayonetta 2, and Bayo shows in that very game she can fight off attempts at attacking her soul.
Devil May Cry
What’s canon for Devil May Cry?
To keep things simple, Itsuno (Current DMC director) has gone on record to canonize nearly all of Devil May Cry, as part of the restructuring of the Devil May Cry timeline. This includes the novels for the games, and the two manga that exist as well. Matt Walker has acknowledged elements of the DMC4 novel are canon, which makes sense since it's meant to be an “extended version” of the fourth game.
The DMC1 novel slightly contradicts the events of the series, but it is stated to be canon, and the DMC5 prequel novel retconned the events to have been caused by “lesser demons”. Dante's alias as "Tony Redgrave" is also mentioned in Devil May Cry: The Animated Series (Episode 8), and DMC5 itself, alongside the fact the novel provides the only explanation as to where engraving ".45 Art Warks" comes from. It is in reference to Nell Goldstein (who first appears in this novel), the grandmother of Nico from DMC5. She designed Ebony and Ivory for Dante, which is shown in the novel and confirmed by Capcom. Nell herself is mentioned to have created Ebony and Ivory by Nico in cutscene, and in the gallery. This same entry makes mention of Bobby’s Cellar, a location also from the Vol. 1 novel, and said Cellar reappears in both Before the Nightmare, alongside being renamed after a key character in the novel, Grue. The Cellar also reappears in Visions of V.
As for guidebooks:
The “3,1,4,2” artbook is viable to use, as it has the most given information by staff working on DMC, including Itsuno. Devil May Cry 1 Kaitai Shinsho is a Japan exclusive complete edition of the DMC1 Guide, which includes exclusive lore told from the perspective of Dante, some of which would be used by the Visions of V manga. Precious Tears is an artbook for the first game that gives further details on the story.
The DMC English game guides are officially licensed by Capcom, and have developer input, including from the directors. The guides also provide lore that does not contradict established lore in the games.
The timeline goes: Light Novel 1, DMC3 manga, DMC3, Peak of Combat, DMC1, DMC anime, DMC1 CD stories, (both Volumes), DMC2 novel, DMC2, Deadly Fortune (starts slightly before the events of DMC4) and DMC4, Before the Nightmare (starts slightly before DMC5) and Visions of V (starts slightly before DMC5, after BtN and ends in the midst of DMC5) and DMC5.
Why is Peak of Combat being used? Is it canon?
Peak of Combat is a Devil May Cry Chinese mobile game. The game underwent its beta phase in 2021, which concluded in 2022. The game itself takes place between DMC3 and DMC1.
The actual game has been noted to be canon (Link here, Use settings to translate).
正统
In this context it would mean "authentic, official, real". Noted below will be every reference to the game’s canonicity:
Supervised by Capcom: https://www.thegamer.com/devil-may-cry-pinnacle-of-combat-everything-we-know-so-far/
"Devil May Cry - Peak Battle" official website - produced by Yunchang Games
'The storyline of "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" is interspersed between "Devil May Cry 3" and "Devil May Cry 1".'
https://dmc.nebulajoy.com/news_307.html
"Therefore, as the orthodox sequel to the "Devil May Cry" series, "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" once again carries forward these precious qualities"
https://dmc.nebulajoy.com/news_291.html
"The mobile game plot will continue on around the battle of the classic popular character Dante, and will take the story to new heights through "Devil May Cry-Battle of the Peak ''. CAPCOM is the full supervisor of the whole process
http://dmc.yunchanggame.com/news_297.html
Itsuno supervising it:
https://www.famitsu.com/news/202111/03239135.html
The story takes place between Devil May Cry 3 and Devil May Cry 1:
https://www.facebook.com/gaming/DevilMayCryPeakofCombat
The game also directly references the manga for DMC3, alongside the third game as well.
Since Capcom is supervising the story, this means they themselves are giving the orders to the Chinese developers and producers not in the Japanese Capcom branch, and there’s also the fact the entirety of the Asian Languages don’t fully translate based on the words being used, so Orthodox being the closest possible thing to the word canon for them means that, for our purposes and accuracy’s sake, (the example here is Japanese, but the same principles apply to Chinese as well, to an extent), and as such it is the word canon for us too.
As for the usage of Peak of Combat, while the game is not officially translated, there are plans for an international release in the future. The game has fan translations available on youtube and official English voice acting for sections of the game. Footage for the several in-game save screens (which provide lore on enemies and more) is available (Some examples here) and has been thoroughly translated. To demonstrate, all of the weapons for Dante, Lady, and Vergil (who has a mini campaign showing what happened to him in the Demon World right before he confronts Mundus at the end DMC3) have been compiled and translated. Dante has 100+ weapons, Vergil has over 50, Lady has over 40. Likewise here is a collection of all Book of Demon entries.
For the purposes of the blog, statements and footage will be provided, with translations given as well. As for the game being fan translated, fan translations are used by the VS Community all the time. Death Battle, VSB, Spacebattles and others have all used fan translations of material locked to other parts of the world. Guidebooks such as the Naruto Databooks have entries that have not been released (a good example is the fourth databook, of which was used recently in Madara vs Aizen). This also applies to games in general, such as Nintendo keeping Mother 3 locked to Japan and thus forcing the creation of a fan translation of the entire game.
Gacha/Mobile games have been used for scaling purposes before, such as the popular Fate Grand Order. The beta phase for Peak of Combat 1.0 has concluded, and has started to release to other territories in Asia, such as Singapore. The game should be completely viable to use for this blog.
The game’s international release in English has been greenlit, alongside the confirmation it is releasing on PC and that the English game build will be 1-to-1 with the Chinese build in all its material. The English version is set to release soon. (Further confirmation)
Here is a full player guide for the game, full credit to RK. All game cutscenes. Full playlist with all missions, with english voice acting.
Refer here to clarification for any possible contradictions
DMC Cosmology
The cosmology of Devil May Cry is fairly simple. In the beginning of creation, there was a singular universe called the Original/Primordial Chaos. In this era, Demonkind and Humankind lived in a constant era of chaos, which eventually came to a close when the universe was split in two by the “first light” (refer to the Pluto section below to learn more). The actual power from the Original Chaos is nearly gone and a small portion remains in the two halves.
What came out of the split was the Demon World and Human World (Which are referred to as being “the Upper and Lower realm” in the DMC1 Manual). Both together still make up a universe in size, which is affirmed by Mundus’ lore entry in the DMC1 game guide. Both the Demon World and Human World are described as being dimensions in the novels and DMC2 Game Guide, alongside an example of alternate world that has both fused being called an “parallel universe”.
Both realms are shown to have celestial bodies and stars. While the Human World is sometimes used to refer to Earth, it is also used to refer to the Human Universe, with there being an observatory showing the cosmos in reference to both in Peak of Combat. We also see a full cosmos in the Demon World in Peak of Combat.
Both realms are also cut off dimensionally by a barrier that prevents high ranking demons from crossing over, and demons generally need to possess vessels to manifest in the Human World. Refer here for the DMC multiverse.
Infinite-Sized Demon World
The Demon World has a few statements of being endless. Endless is defined as being or seeming to be without end. Several of the statements describe the Demon World as a place of endless darkness, where the stars can’t even be seen. The “never-ending” statement regarding Samsara is most likely in regards to the endless loop of Nirvanas its meant to break. The endless seas scan mentions there being an edge between it and the rest of the Underworld. The manga scan, however, was also translated as follows:
Specifically though, it says "endless" or "boundless" or "eternal". Based on wording, it could mean that literally the perception of darkness is infinite and not the actual volume. The page before this says the world was born from darkness, referring to the Primordial Chaos mentioned in the cosmology section. Thus, it could potentially be argued either way. Each section will give their take in the verdicts below.
Universal DMC
(Refer here for an explanation on “anti feats”)
Nightmare
Nightmare has three statements that it can destroy the Demon World. In the past it was made by Mundus as a weapon, and it proved so powerful he had to bind it. Interestingly, the first statement was in the DMC1 Japanese game guide over 20 years ago, which then was mentioned again in the DMC5 manga and later in Peak of Combat.
The statements in order of release:
DMC1 Japanese Game Guide (From Dante’s commentary):
"To be honest, I'm at a loss in judging whether I should consider this sticky dark monster as a kind of demon.
—-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://jisho.org/search/%E7%84%A1%E5%88%B6%E9%99%90
unlimited; unrestricted; limitless.
While an alternative translation describes the Demon World’s destruction as occurring if the Nightmare were to release its power “indefinitely”, this is a mistranslation. The above term simply means “unlimited” or “unrestricted”, and is actually being used to describe the Nightmare's power itself as opposed to giving a timeframe for its destruction. In context, the “without restriction” part is likely referencing the harness placed on Nightmare that shackles its power.
Visions of V manga
Its power could destroy the Demon World.
So much so he bounded and restrained the very power he sought.
It was created as a weapon without a will.
Peak of Combat
—--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistently it is framed that Nightmare has the power to destroy the Demon World, with Peak of Combat showing that Nightmare could do it without much effort. Any questions about time-frame are resolved by the statement about “lifting the entire structure” of the Demon World, which would be universal regardless of time-frame.
One might ask, if Nightmare is this powerful, why doesn't it nuke the Human World or Demon World in DMC1? The answer is that it has no free will. It's explicitly under Mundus' orders for the entire game, and he has no intent to destroy either universe. Likewise, V has no intent to destroy either realm in DMC5, and its output is limited by V directly.
It is also narratively consistent for Nightmare to be this potent, as when first acquired by V, he was convinced Nightmare could challenge Urizen (Urizen before he got blood amps). Also Nightmare even when weakened is still powerful enough that Mundus used it directly as a weapon. Final point, when referring to Mundus’ kingdom, this would be at least half of the entire demon world, as Mundus and Argosax each ruled half of the entire realm (Stated in Before the Nightmare, the DMC5 novel).
Mundus
By far the most contentious topic in regards to scaling/vs-centric discussion related to DMC. Most back and forth between this revolves around twitter statements regarding Hideki Kamiya answering questions about if Mundus makes a universe in this scene in DMC1. Kamiya himself is controversial to use for validation, as he no longer has authority on the series and WoG for this scene is solely from twitter, and not an interview/commentary. Luckily other material such as the Precious Tears guide answer what is occurring in this scene.
The guide states:
When Mundus flaps his wings, The temple lost its existence in an instant, The world was surrounded by a sea of stars. Only both of them face the vast universe.
Furthermore the same guide says the following:
Right off the bat, we know this space is real and not an illusion, based on the descriptions. The space is called Demon Emperor’s Space (Translation Below, From the Japanese DMC 1 Guide and English Guide)
Given the way the feat is presented, it can be argued equally as either creation or BFR.
Creation
It's said the temple "ceased to exist", which can imply physical alteration of the environment. The counter would be that it's referring to literally what's perceived, the temple no longer existing in the game state, but the text is a narrative description and not a gameplay one. Likewise, the specific japanese is " 包む " for the stars. "包む" means stuff like "to pack" or "to wrap" or "to cover" or "to envelop". Notably it implies an active action and addition to what's there, as opposed to removing what's there in the first place. Furthermore, Mundus uses sigils to transport himself across dimensions, which does not occur in the space scene.
BFR
The sigils point is not objective, as the description for the Rippers (who can cover every inch of the Underworld in less than a day via raw speed alone) shows its possible to venture out into the other parts of the demon world without need of the dimensional travel method Mundus invokes to reach the Human World. Furthermore the japanese guide mentions Dante was transported to this place. The wording to “cover” or “pack” is flowery no matter what interpretation you go with, as their location would not be “enveloped” or “wrapped” with stars in a literal sense, even if it was a creation feat. The wording thus does not disprove BFR, as the notable effect does do that visually.
Either option is viable, and at most it works as support for the other arguments. You readers are open to go with whichever of the views you feel is supported.
Demon World Collapse
It is stated in the Precious Tears guide and in two English guides that Mundus’ death would have collapsed the Underworld/Demon World.
English guides here.
"Underworld collapsing" and "Beginning in the hall of Mundus, Dante has exactly 5 minutes to reach the entrance of the underworld before it collapses, or he dies’ and "Dante defeats Mundus and prepares to escape from the collapsing underworld."
The Last Roar of the Demon Emperor Mundus. The death of Trish.
This is how the long battle came to an end.
Various thoughts and feelings come and go in his chest.
Dante returns to the old world.
The old realm, too, was approaching its final moments.
Dante, who took care of Trish's last breath
He left an amulet and a magic sword for her.
He began to run without looking back.
The old castle rumbled violently. The collapse was accumulating.
—-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the page says “Dante returns to the old world” (this old world clearly being the Demon World), “the old realm, too, was approaching its final moments” and this part is just pure confirmation the Demon World was collapsing with Mundus dying.
Finally the last part: “The old castle rumbled violently”, of course and you can see this in game, everything is shaking, last but not least important “the collapse was accumulating” the final nail in the coffin, the world was ending.
We know from the game itself the collapse goes far beyond a castle, as the collapse even affects the mirror world, which is a dimension separate from the castle. If you have played DMC1 you will know that Dante opens a portal to the demon world in the castle, he enters a mirror dimension and in that mirror dimension he "breaks" the seal Sparda placed to get into the demon world.
Mission 23 specifically shows the effects of the collapse extending into the Upside Down Cathedral, which is part of the Mirror World (here is Dante entering it earlier). Dante goes from the Demon World, into the Mirror World, and out into the Human World, specifically Mallet Island.
Mirror World is meant to be a Mirror of the Human World:
The mirror that reflects this world is the entrance to the demon world! This Demon's cave, where he cannot even breathe, distorts Dante's consciousness with its powerful demonic sea air and robs him of his vision. "The Stone of the Bridge is in Dante's hand, and the demons surround him in a frenzy.
it's basically a copied version of the Human World, and yet it's only a small fraction of the demon realm serving only as an entrance to it in Mallet Island. This mirror realm represents evil in humanity's hearts, it's also a space-time as implied here. Portraits to enter it show a moon for example. The Mirror World also has its own mirror to the Sun, in reverse as the dimension itself is. So the collapse is indeed more than just the castle, and more so the Demon World.
The reason the collapse does not finish is that Mundus recovers from his apparent death and is then sealed by Dante. “Mundus. It was undoubtedly the demon emperor who should have been destroyed”.
Considering the Demon World is at the very least half a universe, this has the potential to be a cosmic feat. Demon Kings having power over the Demon World is something that's shown more than once, as will be shown below in when discussing Argosax.
Void Mundus
Void Mundus is an alternate universion of Mundus who prevailed over Sparda and accomplished his goal to merge both realms. In doing so, he became a “void” and acts as the centerpoint of all energy of the fused realm. Dante defeats him with ease, despite an implication Void Mundus is stronger than his main counterpart.
The worlds are merged in this alternate universe. What occurred is that Mundus succeeded in his plan to merge both realms. The worlds having merged is proven by the following:
"Yet he doubted he and Beryl were in the Underworld. There was no sense of magic underpining the geography. In fact, magic was rather conspicuous in its absence. Dante suspected he was in a HALFWAY PLACE, a REALM neither HUMAN nor DEMON."
Dante notes the alternate world he is in a halfway place between both. This makes sense as he references this as similar to what Gilver did in the DMC1 novel. For context, in that novel Gilver (A demon sent by Mundus) creates a nexus in which the surroundings would begin transforming into another demon world and spread out to consume the entire human world. Something that is loosely echoed in the novel.
This is relevant because Void Mundus is described as both the Heart of the Demon World and the Nexus of its energies. The usage of heart is pretty obvious, it means that Mundus is the center, the source of the demon world, that’s why as the demons get close to him their power starts replenishing to the point where it oversaturated their bodies with power and all of them start falling down. Being this nexus turned Mundus into a literal void, and Dante survives the void exploding on him point blank when he kills it.
Void Mundus’s death is implied to collapse the merged world (an obvious call back to DMC1’s ending).
Argosax
Throughout the events of DMC2, we are told and shown the Demon World is coming closer to the human World, and is consuming it.
On Mission 14 of Dante's disk, the stage level takes place on the city of Vidu Mali, with said city having been distorted by the approach of the Demon World. This is once again confirmed to be the case by the guidebook:
The descriptions of Lucia's disc only continue further:
Furthermore, the effects of merging the realms extends to affecting space-time as well. In mission 14, time is being warped, with the past and future being affected. Phantom appears in the present even though it perished in Mallet island, something that doesn’t exist anymore since it exploded in DMC1, an island that was far away from anything else as it changes positions all the time. The cause is stated to be a temporal paradox caused by the realm merging. Mission 14 also notes the movement of the Demon World’s movement is accelerating, which is noted to Dante when he uses Four Lights to create a gateway out of the warped area he was in.
The cause of this is implied to be Argosax:
Once Arius attempts to gain Argosax's power (since it was sealed off in the past by Sparda), distortions happen across the sky and beyond. When Argosax is killed by Dante, all the distortions it caused and the Realm Merging ceases and is undone, and this makes sense, as even after Arius is defeated the distortions continue.
Now, the eclipse might have some degree of contribution, as stated here: “Warped by the Eclipse''. However, Lucia says the ritual is activated before the eclipse completes, they have until the eclipse finishes. The ritual completes itself as the ritual ends.
Argosax is also directly associated with the Demon World itself:
19:09-20:10 - Timestamps for the meaning of Argosax’s name. “One of his names in Japanese, is kantan no hao translated as dominator of chaos, but it’s once again an ancient chinese mythological reference. Hunden or kantan as he’s known in Japanese is a name of a mythological creature with no face and the term referring to the primordial chaos of creation”
Argosax’s japanese files give it more affiliation.
"Overlord of chaos that one time held in his hands most of the Demon World and subdued many demons but, defeated by Sparda, was waiting for the time of resurrection. Possesses both forms and abilities of every demon.”
"At one point, he was the king of chaos who surrendered many demons with most of the makai in his hands, but he was defeated by Spada and waited for the time of resurrection. It has the appearance and ability of all demons."
Argosax is Mundus’ rival for the throne of the Demon World. Argosax is described as embodying the chaos of the Demon World, and having power over the realm. This helps support the notion that Argosax was indeed the one moving the Demon World, as the ritual began and its demonic energy was freed by Arius.
Most damning is:
This is clearly referring to Argosax, who Sparda and Matier’s clan sealed away ages ago. Argosax attempts to merge the realms to rule them, as all Demon Kings do (like Mundus and his counterpart).
Note: One final note to make is that the Demon World itself does not auto merge with the Human World when both are connected, power is required to initiate it. Not only does nothing happen to the human world once the portal to the demon world opens in DMC3; further proven in the end of the game that everything is still the same shortly after the demon world closes at the end of the game, the Hell Gates, which are stated and shown to be literal gates to the Demon World, not cause any form of merging/consuming whatsoever in any part of Fortuna compared to how it was originally.
The Qliphoth tree, which is stated to have broken the dimensional barrier in DMC5, and has been growing for the span of a month, hasn't done anything in the Human World in terms of actually merging the realms together. The only times the merging was ever done was when Argosax and Mundus were actively trying to do it, so the entire argument of the Demon World automatically merging with the human world makes no sense.
Pluto
Pluto is a rather odd case of a fan theory potentially becoming something… more. Back when the first DMC came out, we were given this excerpt:
Now back then this most likely was in reference to Mundus and Sparda, though notably Pluto’s is in opposition to Mundus wanting to merge both realms. We are also told Mundus slew the prior demon king, “the god of evil”.
Years later the DMC3 manga would have a section regarding the backstory of the universe, though a lot was lost in localization.
The translators note that "Heaven" referred to in the page is just another word for the Demon World. Furthermore, it reveals lore regarding an unknown demon god, usually mistaken as being Sparda due to mistranslations.
Now, the scan states that there was a lot of pandemonium and chaos spilling between the border of the Human World and the Demon World, and that the Earth was torn apart with great rents whenever "the wrath of heaven poured down on them", resulting in many lives being lost. Many DMC fans believe that this page is talking about Mundus's invasion on the Human World. But is it?
Notice the fact that the scan specifies those events took place during the birth of Heaven and Earth. Let's revisit the prologue/introduction for the DMC3 manga.
"The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."
And thus we arrive on the conclusion that it's not talking about the invasion by Mundus's armies
- this tale is in fact expanding on what was stated by the narrator in the prologue of the manga, narrating what happened at the birth of both worlds ("earth and heavens"), before the Human World and the Demon World were separated.
The official take has Arkham narrate that '[the Demon God] struck the earth with a giant spear so that heaven and earth would never again be split apart', but this is actually supposed to read "so that heaven and earth would never again be torn apart."
¹ lit. "turned upside down" ². the worlds.
In other words, it is merely a way of saying that he separated the worlds so that they would never again be devastated by how chaotic their contrast was. One was a world of light, the other was a world of darkness -- these two wildly different realms existing within the same dimension/universe led to pandemonium on both sides, so the demon god separated them to bring order to both realms.
This led to fan theories that this demon god was in fact the Pluto name mentioned in DMC1, and the very same god of evil that Mundus killed. You can read more details about the original theory here.
Flash forward a few years later. Peak of Combat launches and Pluto is revealed as a demon king within the game. Pluto in Peak of Combat is hyped as being “Born in the abyss of evil, underneath the cover of the mask is the source of human decay.” Pluto, the one born out of the abominable abyss. Pluto is an ancient Demon King who wields the Abyssal Spear, which controls space and time. His goal in-game is to free demon kings that Sparda sealed away, and pretend to be a human to manipulate Dante to get his blood.
Pluto’s design seems to have taken inspiration from the design of the demon god shown on the page mentioned in Arkham’s tale.
Now in regards to the actual split he is often credited for by fans, the sequence of events are left a bit vague but are akin to something like this:
"The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."
1- Primordial Chaos gave birth to the Demon World; a realm of darkness.
2- A ray of light was birthed from the Demon World, and became the Human World.
3- The existence of both the Human World and the Demon World merged together caused instability, and pandemonium/chaos spilled between their borders.
4- A Black-Horned Demon God (implied to be Pluto, who was prophesied to separate heaven and earth before being betrayed) created a seal that separates the Demon World and the Human World.
5- Mundus killed his Demon King, took power, and decided to invade the Human World to merge it with the Demon World, and the darkness started consuming the light.
6- Sparda sided with humanity and defeated Mundus, and then sealed the Demon World to stabilize the Human World and prevent further invasions.
According to more recent lore introduced by Peak of Combat, we learn that the light had split the world in half:
The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons
So while Pluto might have contributed to the separation, the most credit is given to the ray of light/first light. Some current unknowns are the fact that Pluto is alive, and the prior demon king was noted to have been killed. In general the argument is very theory heavy, which makes sense regarding Pluto’s origin. No particular view regarding the matter is objective, and in time Peak of Combat 2.0 may reveal more regarding Pluto's history and motivations.
Chen/Beastheads
In the second novel, a human called Chen is revealed to have cloned Sparda from a DNA sample, and grafted that flesh onto himself. Furthermore, he acquires a demonic statue called the Beastheads, which grants access to DMC’s vast multiverse of timelines.
Chen, when connected to the Beastheads, was able to perceive the beginning and end of Dante’s universe and then see beyond that, viewing beyond all dimensions and time itself.
When this occurs, Chen becomes empowered, releasing a powerful energy that emits his want for power and knowledge. As Chen makes his wish, he is notably flooded with energy, and states he is becoming a god. The narration stated he has become Dante’s superior, and Chen claims he now has infinite knowledge. He uses this power for energy attacks and the knowledge to make weapons such as a true copy of the Sword of Sparda.
The argument here is to say Chen gained multiversal power via this process. The issue lies in the above having mistranslations.
Chen does not actually emit a want for power, he views knowledge as power. He even notes that strength is overrated. While he does become empowered after eating the statue, there is no provable quantification beyond becoming Dante's equal, and it’s never stated this power boost is drawn from alternate universes in the correct translation. Even if he did draw on the universes, there's a difference between drawing power from many universes and drawing the power "of'' those universes. There's just no way to quantify that or say it's equal to the energy to affect all those universes.
Summary
Nightmare is consistently stated to be able to destroy the Demon World, which is a universe.
Mundus either made a universe / sent Dante to another space in the Demon World, and his defeat destabilized and threatened to destroy the Demon World, including the alternate dimension of the Mirror World
Void Mundus is the center of all demonic energy of the Fused Demon-Human parallel universe, and Dante survives his detonation after killing him. His death is implied to erase the alternate universe.
Argosax in a sealed state having his energy leak via a ritual merges the Demon World with the Human World and affects space-time, connecting the past and future together. The eclipse might have some vague degree of connection.
Pluto is a theoretical entity that was seemingly canonized by Peak of Combat. There is some level of debate on how much this entity contributed to the original universe split, given Peak of Combat’s statement on the “First Light”
Chen wished for all knowledge in the multiverse, not the power of it
Kamiya
For the purposes of the blog, tweets from Kamiya aren't being used to scale Dante, and we will be sticking to that rule for all cases.
That said, it would be prudent to address two specific tweets. Kamiya was once asked if the Demon World collapsed from Mundus being defeated in DMC 1. In the tweet, he replied that it didn't collapse, which is contradicted by the game, the DMC 1 english game guide (which he also gave input on), the Japanese game guide “Precious Tears”, and the DMC 4 game guide years later. Kamiya himself has no more authority on the games and has even said in the past his word on twitter no longer applies as he no longer works on DMC. The DMC 4 guide statement came out well after Kamiya left the DMC staff, which shows consistency on the narrative intent of the other statements and the game itself.
If Kamiya’s tweet is taken to be valid, this would also make the second valid, the responses affirming that Mundus’s space was creation. Since all of these are twitter responses, neither will be used for the blog itself.
Ray of Light Argument
This one is kinda weird. An argument currently out there for DMC characters having “higher dimensional power” is that the Human World/Light is infinitesimal in comparison to the Demon World (argued as infinite for this specific argument), to the point of the Demon World being dimensionally transcendental to it (basically the Ginnungagap argument from Bayo 3).
Beyond the statement of the first light cutting the original universe in half, and the DW being infinite being open to interpretation, there lies a simpler issue with this. There is no statement for the size of the ray of light, and we know that 1) it was “large” enough to bisect the original universe, and 2) the light then became the HW, which is half of the original universe. From this, there is no reason to believe it is infinitesimal in size compared to the DW.
Higher Dimensional DMC
It is noted in Peak of Combat that there is a higher dimension from which souls originate from.
The Soul
It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.
“Dimension" in the sense of "geometric dimension" and "dimension" in the sense of "alternate world" are actually different words in chinese.
次元 means dimension in the way it's commonly used in fiction, while 維度 very specifically means spatial dimension.
灵魂
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘。
一种基本的九维形式，一般来说，它起源于并返回到八正道之外的更高维度。
它不仅包含心灵和记忆，还包含自古以来本体及其祖先的所有信息。
The actual character used here refers to geometrical dimensions.
In Peak of Combat, we are told that the souls of all beings are both “nine dimensional forms” and that they originate from higher dimensions beyond the “eightfold path”. The eightfold path is a reference to a path of Buddhist practices leading to liberation from samsara.
“Eightfold Path”, according to Buddhism, is the key for a person to ascend from the state of dukha which is the cycle of life and death (Samsara) to a state of Nirvana. The Demon World has multiple realms known as Nirvana, which repeat in a cycle that is broken with items called samsara, allowing one to reach forbidden Nirvana. The mention of the eightfold path is very intentional here, as the Demon World with DMC3 (which Peak of Combat relies heavily on) is built upon buddhistic concepts. Specifically, the Nirvanas are actually “Hells” and the circle they represent is a metaphor for Samsara, going back to the Eightfold Path.
We are told that Demons originate from the Primordial Chaos that existed before creation was split, and that names are part of the souls and they precede the Demon World.
From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself.
It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.
Now the word used to refer to the primordial chaos itself '原始混沌 ' Yuánshǐ hùndùn which refers to the primordial chaos in chinese myth, the world before heaven and earth were separated.
This is similar to what the Demon World and the Human World are described as in the beginning of creation:
Now, the Demon World does have some statements of souls going there after death:
Despite this, it is stated that the Chaos itself is essentially gone/nearly gone:
Chaos Boundary Stone
The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons
Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare.
Regardless of if the Higher Dimension from where souls originate is the Chaos or Demon World, it’s debatable if many of the feats regarding the Demon World directly affect all spatial dimensions present in DMC, or if they’re only affecting the lower-dimensional portions. Nightmare’s feat, for example, seems to suggest “lifting” in the sense of 3D space, which could suggest it’s only lifting the 3D structure. However, 结构, the word used for structure, can also mean something like general composition, implying Nightmare is lifting the thing that fundamentally makes up the Demon World, which could include any possible higher dimensions.
The overall story of Peak of Combat never really touches upon the dimensional statement, with it being mainly given via the game’s many lore dumps via menu screen. Pluto’s argument of splitting the Chaos, as mentioned earlier, is incomplete due to the theoretical origin of it and potential conflicting information from Peak of Combat.
To close out, while the Dimensional Statement is not simply a one-off reference, the implementation of scaling for the information it provides is unclear in its objectivity, and different members have differing opinions on it. Views on it will be addressed in team verdicts.
What about Yamato’s Anti-Feats?
It has been argued in the past Yamato cannot negate Durability because it failed to cut the Kalina Ann. What needs to be kept in mind is this was back in DMC3, where its spatial cutting wasn't fully explored in lore. In 3, it is only said to “cut through anything” without much additional context. By DMC4, Yamato is stated to cut space-time, and be a “sniper of dimension/space, not material”. Its move descriptions describe it as a cutting through dimensions, and DMC5/Peak of Combat show this in action, likely inspired by reboot Vergil. When Dante uses the blade on the Savior in the DMC4, it flat out ignores the Savior’s durability by attacking the space it occupies.
It also needs to be kept in mind Vergil was both weakened at that moment in DMC3, and was not actively trying to kill Lady in that fight. On a closing note, Kalina Ann might have special properties.
Dante’s “Weaknesses”
While Dante does have weaknesses, a few are misunderstood or taken out of context, so this section will be used to explain some weaknesses that simply don’t exist.
Dante’s blunt-force durability versus his piercing damage durability. Simply put, it’s believed that due to scenes where he allows himself to be impaled, such as the intro of DMC3, gaining Alastor in DMC1, being impaled by Rebellion in 4 thanks to Nero, and the like that he simply can take punches but not blades. This is untrue. As stated by Dante himself, he makes a sport of taking attacks because they can’t do lasting damage and to essentially have fun. This is the same reason why he can take a strike from Urizen but be stabbed seven ways to sunday by fodder.
In regard to the supposed heart weakness, it is gone as early DMC1, as Dante confirms in the Japanese guide of that game that Trish impaled him through the heart, and that it cannot kill him. Additionally, back when Gilver made the comment about heart removal being enough to kill Dante, he was using a "rip-off Yamato" that was enchanted with the power of decay. Also, Vol.1 is the weakest variation of Dante, who barely took back his name and power, which means for all intents and purposes he can’t be used as an anti-feat because this is him barely starting to use his power.
The Haywire Neo Generator from DMC3 is used to say Dante doesn’t resist soul-based attacks, but the issue is most Demons can affect Souls, and he simply walks off their attacks, if it even incurs damage to begin with. However, we know for a fact the Temen-ni-gru held some of the smartest individuals, as it has texts that are more like concepts that can’t be explained in words alone, with intimate knowledge of the Demon World and its materials.
This same tower also held the Book of Demons, as well, so it’s vastly more likely that the Haywire Neo Generator is made of these same materials, especially considering it’s outright stated in Peak of Combat that this is how humans killed Demons in ancient times, which is the time period the Demonic Tower originates from. It is also the second weakest iteration of Dante (DMC3), and can’t be compared to his older self as he is only shortly after Vol.1, with little access to his power, a major plot point in the game as this he barely attains his basic Devil Trigger halfway through it.
Lastly, the only relevant “weakness” Dante is misconstrued to have is mind control, but this is a vast misinterpretation of what happens in Episode 9 of the Animated Series. He specifically explains he had to let himself fall under mind control to gain the luck to stay in the game, as it alters one’s luck to allow them to win games whilst it takes over their mind. This was a plot to reveal the Demon, and this directly contradicts the multiple times it’s emphasized Dante has great will or can use items that require immense willpower, or his scaling to Vergil, who resisted mind control for 9 years.
Verdicts
Note: In regard to Pluto, closing thoughts are the following. Given the retcon/narrative change about the context for Pluto's prophecy in the Mallet Island library, and the revised manga translations, Pluto likely did have some input to splitting the realms. The Peak of Combat statement regarding the first light throws a wrench in how much it can be claimed he was the sole party responsible. Furthermore, Peak of Combat itself has yet to add any further context besides canonizing Pluto. The barrier dividing the realms he is responsible for though is likely Universal or higher, but the actual split needs more context. As such, it's in limbo at the moment, but likely will be clarified in the future.
Some blog members are fine attributing the entire feat to Pluto. Consensus wise, both verdicts are taking a neutral approach as stated above.
Team Dante
Stats
Stats is definitely a big factor in determining this match up and both DMC and Bayonetta have gone through some revisions. Both Dante and Bayonetta have relatively impressive direct feats, however, the real high-tier feats come from scaling, specifically feats Universal and above.
Starting with Dante, he’s defeated Pluto, Nightmare, Argosax, Mundus, Void Mundus, and many more. Defeating Mundus is impressive, considering he can create an entirely new alternate universe in an instant. This feat has a bit of contention to it, due to the inherently vague nature, however additional clarification from secondary sources should make it usable. Specifically, the DMC1 art book states that when Mundus flaps his wings, the temple lost its existence, and the specific Japanese establishes that there was enveloping happening, meaning it’s unlikely it was traditional BFR, or anything of the sort. The realm is also called “Demon Emperor's Space”, and implies it came from his power. There’s more to this however, as the realm is also stated to be infinitely expanding, meaning an infinite-sized universe was made. This being literal would make sense, considering it’s also said to be a realm beyond human comprehension.
Mundus can also be argued to be sustaining the underworld. In DMC1, after Mundus is defeated, a collapse occurs which would’ve taken down both the Demon World and Mirror World (which is a realm that contains cosmological objects such as a moon, star, and is likely a mirror of the real world). As thus this argument is also Universal - Low Multiversal.
Lastly, Nightmare has a feat (or more specifically, a statement within Peak of Combat), that establishes him as capable of destroying the entire Underworld, with ease, as well as being able to lift it. The feats involving the demon world could be this strong due to the consistent statements establishing the realm as endless, infinite, or containing unending darkness. It should also be noted that the “edge” argued to be present in DMC3’s final level is actually nothing more than a portal to the Demon World, something Vergil verbatim says in that Mission. Thus he is falling from the “edge” of the Human World because the worlds are connected via this portal. As such, it’s likely the statements about the Demon World containing an endless darkness are consistent and literal, as opposed to being exaggerated.
For high-end arguments, there’s some pretty solid dimensional tiering basis for DMC. A description within Peak of Combat reveals that there’s a higher dimensional soul form (specifically nine-dimensional), that originates from beyond the Eightfold Path. The raw Japanese text even suggests it’s using literal geometric dimensions, as opposed to anything regarding alternate worlds or realms. The mention of the Eightfold Path is likely intentional and supported given the Demon World heavily borrows from Buddhism and concepts such as the samsara. The nine-dimensional statement could be referring to the souls returning to the Demon World, which would suggest that there exists nine spatial or geometric dimensions within the Demon World.
This could affect the feats mentioned in very big ways, such as Nightmare destroying or lifting the Demon World in its entirety or the Demon World collapsing in its entirety alongside the mirror realm. The issue however with this argument is that it’s not as concrete as the other tier placements for Dante. There isn’t any context on whether higher dimensions are actually being affected, other than the specification that the “entirety” of the Underworld is being affected by Nightmare. There is also some debate as to whether or not the dimensions are qualitatively superior to the prior, which DMC never elaborates much on. So while the argument does overall have a precedent, it’s not entirely reliable to label Dante as 9D or higher-dimensional based on the evidence that we currently have.
Dante therefore, ranges from Universal to Low Multiversal, with potential to be higher should the statements of the Demon World being infinite be taken literally.
For speed, Dante has causally dodged several different lasers, which can meet many of the qualifications for real lasers, reacted to Mundus’ energy attacks, who is capable of creating a universe within seconds, and scales above Pluto and the Rippers, who can cover every single inch of the underworld via raw speed alone, with Pluto even being fast enough to traverse and bypass the time stream with his speed, giving the illusion of instant teleportation. This would mean Dante ranges from FTL or MFTL+, to infinite/immeasurable speed at his best.
Bayonetta’s stats are a bit more clear-cut, she scales to Jubileus and Singularity via defeating them both. Jubileus can create an entire universe from scratch, while Singularity was going to destroy the entire multiverse, which holds infinite universes, and was also threatening Ginnungagap, the void above the cosmology/multiverse which is much larger than it in its entirety. It’s possible it could be argued to be a greater level of infinity, however, that’s about as much context as we’re given for the realm’s size. Similarly to higher-dimensional Dante, it doesn’t have the best foundation or evidence to form an argument around.
As such, Bayonetta is similar to Dante when talking about Universal levels of power, but likely gets higher than Dante due to her Multiversal+ scaling (aka an infinite level due to scaling to beings who can threaten infinite universes).
For speed feats, Bayo can fight Irenic, a car that has a very similar feat to the Rippers, in that it can cross all of Paradiso in a day, a feat that gets quadrillions to quintillions c but is more likely than not infinite speed, due to Paradiso’s infinite size. She can also run through time with her speed. This means she ranges from at least MFTL+ to infinite/immeasurable speed at her peak.
Strength-wise, Bayonetta has solid scaling to Multiversal+ threats, which Dante lacks, only getting Universal/Low Multiversal level, with his feats having an added layer of complexity should the Demon World be interpreted as being infinite/endless. However, if dimensional tiering is used for both, Dante gets higher than Bayonetta, as there’s no evidence to suggest Bayo can scale to a cosmology with nine dimensions, which would be the amount Dante scales to. This is using the absolute highest ends for both characters though, and should probably be opted out. It’s safer to say Bayonetta is stronger than Dante, due to the aforementioned issues with using dimensional tiering.
Speed-wise, the calc for the Ripper feat gets far higher than the calc for the Irenic feat (Unvigintillion c vs Quintillions c). However, both could be argued to simply be infinite speed due to Pluto’s time axis statement, and Paradiso being larger than an infinite structure. As such with finite ends, Dante is faster, but with infinite ends, they’re completely equal.
Summary
Dante and Bayonetta have solid Universal and Multiversal feats respectively. The realms that Dante’s opponents affect could be argued to be infinite in volume, but are open to scrutiny due to the nature of said statements, and he still lacks the Multiversal+ scaling that Bayonetta has. This makes Bayo stronger overall.
Dante is faster than Bayonetta when strictly looking at finite ends, but both of their infinite speed ends cancel out, making them more likely than not equal in speed.
Arsenal & Abilities
There is a lot to unpack with this one, but we will try to keep it condensed. Both have several abilities and resistances that counter each other.
That Damn Book
No surprise, the Book of Demons changes what was once a more simple match and flips it on its head. It can suck the souls of Demons that naturally resist their souls being targeted by the Beastheads. Demons are resistant to the Beasthead's assimilation process, which assimilates human mass and soul by deconstructing them into basic magical energy, and in the process they also transmute human matter and soul to stone. Despite this, no Demon can fight off the Book’s ability to rip out souls or even pieces of them, and create full pages off their data. Each page gives the Book all the abilities of the captured soul, which is a verse rule as old as the DMC anime. The book also arguably gives Dante the Demonic Energy of the Soul, which is at least implied by Lady.
Bayonetta’s demons have no resistance to the Book, existing only to be food for it. Likewise, Bayonetta being “rewritten to her core” to be more demonic by the Demon Masquerade opens her to the Soul rip, even a partial piece would make the book her Kryptonite. This leads to the question, can the book be destroyed?
It is true the Book does manifest to break seals, and is shown in an animation to suck out Minotaur’s soul from underneath it. However, this animation is only shown then for purposes of showing the viewer. Not once again does the Book manifest, even when it would be ideal for Pluto and Faye to destroy it (Pluto implies at one point he wants to take it, most likely to break more of Sparda’s seals). The Book successfully makes pages of both from mere Soul pieces (as both escape). Devil weapons like Pluto’s Spear are shown to simply manifest mid-combat in-game without the book showing up.
The Book is a Devil Arm, which are stated to be able to regenerate and use their resources to fix themselves (in this case the archived souls). The passage says there are two kinds of Devil Arms (see the "either" in the last sentence). Those two categories are "made out of Demon Souls" and "not". The Book is made of the soul of a powerful demon king and a priestess, which gave it a mind of its own. It is shown being able to act to defend its master, and to select out said master. Given we are told Devil Arms can restore themselves using their resources, the Book should be able to use Demon Souls to heal from damage, on the same level as a Demon or use its abilities to heal, like Mourning Banshee (more on that way down).
To address a few “anti-feats'' for Devil Arms not healing, Yamato is noted in the very passage above to be an exception to the rule (it needs a descendant of Sparda present to restore itself), which should also apply to Rebellion, given they both come from Sparda. As for Cerberus being destroyed by Balrog, it was from contending with a Yamato shard, and as noted by the text Cerberus felt its job was done, it had no need to return. The Book of Demons is far more complex in design and function than Cerberus, and has healing abilities archived within itself. Any damage Bayonetta does to it will very likely be repaired.
Names and Souls
Let's start with the big one. Names in DMC are fundamental aspects of Demons:
From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.
However this also applies to humans, as the primordial chaos formed the Souls of Demons and humans. The description for Souls specifically notes that it applies to all people, humans and Demons alike
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘
It continues to hide mysteries that neither humans nor Demons understand, but that all people possess
Names themselves are abstract, manipulating Names for either would be “conceptual”. Hybrids like Dante and Vergil (who are also part human) have had their Names removed (Dante to himself, Mundus to Vergil), which in turn has affected them.
We also know the Fallen Priest "erases" every aspect of the being, including their soul, so it would be erasing their concepts as well (see next section). In DMC, we know Souls have shapes via the Soul statement:
Names have no shapes and are stated to be non-corporeal, so if they are the most fundamental aspect of the being and there's nothing more fundamental, then affecting them would just be conceptual manipulation. This would apply outside of verse as affecting someone's concept or abstract essence. Removing a Name power nulls the target, decking them drastically in power and can even cause them to lose form to an extent (Sparda removing the Sin’s names, Vergil coming back in a near-dead state due to Mundus tampering with his name).
With that out of the way, the Book of Demons takes Demon Souls and Names. It would basically nullify all of Bayo’s demons, and her when she merges with them via Demon Masquerade. Furthermore, Dante can affect Names in general, so he could affect Bayonetta. While he hasn't used this ability in a long time, it isn't out of the ordinary given the power difference and his sensing abilities, which can discern someone's power. The gap would push Dante to use more esoteric abilities, and the Book itself can target humans and Demons with Fallen Priest (and can do so without Dante’s inputs, as it has a desire to protect its chosen user). Overall Bayonetta cannot resist this ability, as she has not been shown to resist conceptual abilities.
One final note, the Left Eye of the World by itself likely cannot create concepts. The Eyes together with Loki’s sovereign power can, which gives control over the eyes, as Aesir did in the past. Bayonetta does not seem to have access to any of the benefits of having both eyes. Even if she could make concepts, it would be far different than restoring a removed concept. She would have to do that after her concept is altered already, which would drastically weaken or kill her.
Existence Erasure and Spatial Cutting
The Fallen Priest gives Dante energy-based EE (see Book abilities) that erases a being on a more fundamental level than Bayo has shown to resist. Her main counter to this is the Pulley Accessory (switches the target of attacks from Bayo to a limited number of Butterflies), which has a limited use before it has to be replaced. The Climax Brace would not remove the need to restock the Pulley, and multiple Butterflies can be targeted at once to lessen its defense. The Fallen Priest’s energy attacks can be shot out in multiple directions at once and it can teleport. The existence erasure is also worded in a way that does suggest its an actual ability, with a sense of immediacy.
It uses the exact word for "erasure", says again that it will reduce it to "nothingness" which re-affirms it, and specifies that it includes all aspects of the target, including non-physical stuff like Souls and (in this case) Names, which don't really have a durability.
Moreso, Dante can simply bypass the Butterflies all together with the spatial cutting abilities of the Pluto’s Spear or the Yamato Shard, which has the same durability-negating abilities as the full blade. There is an argument that Balrog (a Demon who gets another shard in the DMC5 novel) using it for close-range combat means the shard’s range is limited. This isn't true in the slightest, as Balrog did not know how to use the shard functions besides powering himself up and is mainly a brawler. Dante is noted to have mastered Yamato within the few minutes he had it in DMC4, and still owns one of its shards, which he used to cut himself out of the Demon World.
Yamato can negate durability by attacking the targets’ “dimension/space”, rather than its actual body/material. Cutting space would cut through everything occupying the space, altering the space in their body to be split aka durability doesn't really apply (which is exactly how Yamato is described as working on the Savior). Since the shard can be used at long distance, Bayo wouldn’t get much of a chance to break it, and Dante has a back up:
Pluto’s spear can divide space all the way to the Demon World, bypassing the dimensional barrier separating it from the Human World, which puts it on the same level as Yamato. The Spear also can be summoned mid combat without the book. It instantly teleports away after an attack and thousands can be created at once for an attack. In case Bayonetta tries to destroy it, it can simply dodge and return to its wielder or teleport. Bayo being able to affect it with Witch Time is debatable, as it controls space and time and its temporal effects outright bypass Dante’s layered time resistance. At worst she would destroy some of its spawned copies, but even one attack from a spear would bypass her defenses.
Bayonetta has no resistance to either ability. The Priest's EE is described to erase down to the most fundamental aspect, which in this context would be their conceptual/abstract essence, which is far more potent than the EE clouds Bayonetta has survived. It will eventually overwhelm her Butterfly substitutes and hit her directly before new ones can manifest. Even then, Dante can spatially bypass them. Yamato and Pluto can bypass the defenses of the Pulley, and outright wound her despite her durability advantage. The only argument Bayonetta has for surviving Yamato is her regen (see next section) and possibly being able to deflect Valiance’s blade, which seems to cut space. This same cut however seems to leave debris as a normal cut would, and if Bayonetta herself is hit by it she dies in the QTE (Bayonetta 2 has several non-fatal QTEs, this is meant to be a fatal one).
Bayonetta simply falls short against these abilities, with her best option being evasion. Given all the abilities have a long range, it's only a matter of time before she gets tagged. What about Witch Time? We will get there soon.
Time Hax
Here is a rather tricky one to decide. Bayonetta has a few stacks of Witch Time, an additional from Umbran Clock Tower, and a few modifiers to make activation faster and last longer. It also doubles as a boost to her reflexes and reaction time. Affecting Aesir is impressive, but he only has a baseline resistance that is shown in game.
Dante has Quicksilver, which also increases reflex alongside slowing time. More notably, the way it slows time is by sending out a dimensional rift, similar to the Realm Shift Kratos has in GOW Ragnarok. QS and every other temporal ability Dante has can slow down Demons, who resist the Demon World’s temporal effects, which cause temporal paradoxes and lock the hands of time, creating infinite loops. His Bangle is a complete time stop, not just a slow down. The Chronoheart can be used alongside other abilities, as can Quicksilver since it is a style. Pluto’s spear controls space and time, and can slow down Dante, who resists Geryon’s time slow (which is literally Quicksilver). He also scales to Vergil, who has shown the ability to adapt and evolve to being able to move in the Bangle’s time stop (supported by guides noting Vergil was evolving each fight). Dante is also to resist Urizen’s temporal abilities, being able to move in it.
While Dante has not been shown to stack his abilities (mainly because he got them from different points in timeline), it should be possible for the equipment composite he's getting here. Bayonetta also does not typically open with full stacks, having been caught more than once in Balder’s “Light Speed”. Dante would at least resist her initial stack, even if its activation has been extended. The Book of Demons makes the Umbran Clock Tower unreliable (Dante would just gain its temporal abilities). Likewise if Bayonetta makes the mistake of fusing with her demons, the Book would just take her abilities in general, as she becomes open to its functions.
Dante has sufficient resistance to deal with a good deal of WT stacks, The Book prevents the additional Tower stack from coming into play, and Bayonetta does not open with a full stack right off the bat. Dante also scales to Vergil who can move in an actual time stop, not just a time slow.
One important thing to mention is that the speed boost given by WT is never specified. In contrast, Quick Heart multiplies Dante’s speed by 10 times, and he gets an additional large speed boost from activating Devil Trigger. Since both start at equal speed, Dante is getting a chance to increase his speed right off the bat to match WT by resisting its initial stacks, and Quicksilver further equals this out by further boosting his speed. Dante’s resistances, speed boost options, and the Book of Demons ultimately allows Dante to fight off Witch Time.
Banshee
This one is pretty quick. Both sides agree Bayonetta has no way to break the Banshee’s link with her, which gives Dante indefinite revives so long as Bayonetta remains in existence or her the link is severed. It should be noted that Banshee revives with stamina restored. Banshee is shown to return after Dante kills it the first time, reappearing about 1 minute after death, with its health restored. As stated by Vergil, having health restored means your stamina has been restored:
Bayonetta’s only option to stop these revives is to destroy the book, which as mentioned earlier is not viable.
Regeneration and Stamina
Bayo can regenerate from her soul. Without an Umbran Heart, this regen only lasts for a while, as shown with Jeanne and all the alternative Bayos dissipating. The destruction of said “Heart” would lead to the regen being impaired. Dante can already negate potent demonic regen to a decent extent, leaving wounds that refuse to heal even years later.
Bayonetta can negate an Angel's ability to heal from their body being broken apart, but it is child's play for the full potency of Dante’s healing prowess. As shown by Nero, Hybrids can heal from the melting down of the body and soul, and mid tier demons can heal from their very concept. Nero healing himself did not lower his stamina, rather he had enough power to fight through a boss rush in the Savior before fighting Sanctus, this done without any rest.
Dante himself had a long fight with Urizen before he tired out, which potentially lasted hours given Nero’s arrival time. The DMC5 novel stated Dante started this fight going all out, in Devil Trigger. While Dante does tire out fighting equals or stronger foes, his ability to keep his stamina up has improved over the years. Dante and Vergil fought for nearly 20 minutes before Nero interrupted, with notable drops for Dante only happening after the fight concluded.
In regards to the Mallet Island argument, Dante was indeed weakened by his fight with Mundus, this is true. However, he has improved since then. Mundus is also the same entity who can perma-kill his Demonic generals, despite their regen. Hybrid Regen still works when they are tired, like Vergil healing being split in half despite a long fight with Dante. Lastly, Banshee will take care of any stamina drops for Dante from any damage Bayonetta inflicts.
Precog
While Bayo can likely block out Dante’s precog, he can still sense her. She is also not shown to have the Left Eye’s ability to see time, this being only an ability shown by Aesir.
Sealing
Keeping this simple, while Demons can break Singularity’s seals, they do not power null the target like Dante/Sparda’s seals. Bayo’s demons have not been shown to negate power null of this kind, and even the Jeanne resistance isn't full immunity, as her ability to summon was impaired by Singularity’s anti-magic.
Bayo breaking angel/demon seals also doesn’t equate to this, as those are just obstructions to prevent her from moving forward. DMC has a similar type of barrier that breaks when Dante or others kill all demons on stage. Bayo can try to break it via power, but doing so would greatly weaken her, besides the power null.
Demon Army
Besides the Book, Dante can summon his own Demonic swarm to distract and hold off Bayo’s demons. Dante can bring back dead demons via Necromancy from Pluto, summon Demons with the Fallen Priest, and can use the powers of Nevan and Phantom for tiny electro bats and fire spiders. Bayo can fight off Faye’s control of her own demons, but still has to deal with Demons the Book itself could summon or bring back to life against her.
BFR
Dante can escape any BFR attempt Bayo with the Yamato Shard and Pluto’s spear. The Book could also gain the power of any Demon in Inferno if Dante is sent there, in order to escape. The Perfect Amulet is also said to give the ability to travel between the world of men and hell.
Weapons
Quick comparison to close out. Dante can resist Bayo’s molecular breakdown from Bazillions via his shown resistance to the similar effect from the Beastheads, and resist her energy drain via showings against the Fault in DMC4. Her attempts to harm his soul or rip it out will prove fruitless, he can resist her absolute zero, can resist her poisons and curses, and can sense and tag her in Purgatorio.
Likewise, she resists nearly all his weapons, though his heat-based weaponry might be above her pay grade. Ifrit can melt Frosts, who are below Absolute Zero (if that even makes any sense), which is above any shown heat resistance in Bayonetta. Likewise, the Book of Demons gives access to Frosts, who deal with better “cold manipulation” than angels or demons in Bayo. One thing Bayo has going for her is angelic weapons given by Rodin, which can harm most demons the book could summon. These would not work on Dante himself, as he resists holy weapons like Alans Tear. He also would be unaffected by Rodin’s despair hax or Queen Butterfly’s madness.
Summary
It is very unlikely Bayonetta can permanently destroy the Book of Demons, or fully deal with Dante’s sealing. She is vulnerable to having the Name ability used on her by the Book, and her fusions makes this worse. The Book keeps her demons at bay, and Dante resists practically all her weaponry. She cannot kill him given his regeneration and stamina recovery from Banshee, and the Book can kill her indefinitely with Fallen Priest. Bayo’s best bet is pushing Witch Time to its full potential, but Dante has the necessary amount of resistance to fight it. The Book prevents Bayo from adding the Clock, and if she did bring it out, Dante would defeat WT entirely by absorbing its Soul.
Dante has just the right tools to make the Umbran Witch cry (Do witches cry?)
Tertiary Factors
While the main deciding factors may lie in the stats and abilities departments, there's no denying that neither of these two would've made it as far as they have without their skills and the experience they've accrued along the way. In terms of training, Bayonetta has 20 or so years of emulating what was taught by Umbran Witches despite never being formally trained herself, and Dante is mostly self-taught, taking what he learned from his father and mixing it with the things he'd learn over the years. When it comes to experience, both have a rough 40 or so years of active combat under their belts, but Dante has done a lot more in that time than Cereza has.
Though she awoke 20 years before the events of the first game, the majority of that time was spent on the run without a proper understanding of who she was due to her amnesia. And the time between the start of the first game to the end of Bayonetta 3 isn't nearly as long as the time Dante's adventures have spanned across. Hell, Bayonetta 2 takes place within the span of 24 hours, and not that it isn't impressive, but Dante has simply done a lot more.
From being on the run at 8 years old in the DMC3 manga, to toppling the Temen-ni-gru at 19, and the many adventures within Peak of Combat during the gap between DMC3 and 1, we're shown Dante's improvement over the years. Like with him slaying Mundus and surpassing his father entirely during the events of DMC1 at 28, slaying Abigail during the DMC anime at 29, as well as Argosax in his early 30's during DMC2 and taking on the Order of the Sword, his own nephew, and the Saviour at 38. Even during his mid forties in DMC5, Dante fought foes like Urizen and Vergil, dueling with the latter for 40 days straight while in hell. Bayonetta's fights against Jeanne, Balder, Aesir and Singularity are absolutely impressive, but are ultimately less notable when compared to Dante's wider list of foes across the years.
Both command a vast array of weaponry, and are able to master each one within moments of obtaining them, so it's reasonable to say they'd counter each other in this regard, but overall combat skill is a factor we can definitively lock down. And the edge would go to Dante. Bayonetta has faced foes who are hundreds of years old, but demons like Mundus and Argosax have lived for millennia, and Dante has frequently defeated foes like the Black Knights, who were made from his, Vergil's and Sparda's combat data, as well as Sparda's personally trained disciples.
Furthermore, even while crippled, Dante was able to defeat Chen with the Beastheads, who had absorbed all knowledge from countless timelines in the past, present and future, and was actively using it in combat against him alongside his precognition. Not to mention that Chen's foresight capacity surpasses the Conundrum, who can see into the past, the present, countless futures that were considered impossible and even all dimensions across the entirety of time, as well as the destiny of anyone in the Demon World, Human World, and beyond. This doesn't work on Demon Kings or those on the same level, like Pluto, Mundus, Sparda and Dante, but Chen’s version was able to, and Dante still emerged victorious.
While Bayonetta's fight against Singularity, who was given all the data of the multiverse and the memories of the Bayonettas within, could even this out, Dante's more consistent track record against far older and more experienced warlords, as well as Chen actively using this knowledge in combat against Dante is ultimately more impressive.
Although not frequently shown as much as their sheer physical might, both Dante and Bayonetta are extremely intelligent people, and especially so in terms of combat. It is precisely because they understand their limits that their playful sides in battle shine through, and when the situation calls for them to be serious, they absolutely can and will be. Though Dante has shown to be comparatively more cocky and laidback in battle, it's because the fodder enemies he faces pose so little of a challenge that he purposefully toys with them, while Bayonetta is a bit more direct and doesn't care as much for the fun that battle can bring.
When the stakes are high and their lives are on the line, they'll be willing to use any and all options to achieve victory, so the argument that Dante wouldn't use some of his more potent abilities due to his attitude doesn't hold weight given his seriousness against foes like Mundus, Argosax and Urizen. While Bayonetta may be more likely to start digging into her more powerful abilities sooner, Dante is more than capable of surviving through almost anything she can dish out, and would stop holding back once the seriousness of the battle was made apparent.
In conclusion, whilst both Dante and Bayonetta are supremely skilled combatants with decades worth of experience hunting all kinds of supernatural demons and monsters, the youngest Son of Sparta ultimately has more to work with. He's frequently faced foes with far more experience than himself and the opponents Bayonetta has gone up against, and was able to defeat someone who wielded knowledge across all of time from beginning to end and the countless possible timelines that exist, and possessed precognitive abilities that let him predict Dante's moves, despite normally being exempt from this, all while the red-coated demon hunter was crippled.
There's likewise no reason to believe that either's playful and cocky nature would hamper them in a fight like this, as they've shown plenty of times their focus and seriousness during battle, but even if Bayonetta were to start using some of her more powerful abilities first, it's nothing Dante can't survive and hit back against just as hard. Although an extremely close comparison between the two, Dante just has more overall advantages to work with that will see him through to victory.
Conclusion
"It's not about loss... Strength is a choice. Fighting like hell to protect what's important."
Advantages:
Book of Demons locks Bayo’s summons out of the fight/can take their souls, and restore itself from damage
Yamato Shard and Abyssal Spear can wound Bayo despite her durability advantage
Fallen Priest can one shot Bayonetta
Banshee makes it impossible for Bayonetta to kill Dante
Name hax can power null Bayonetta and her demons, which the Book will opt to do
Bayo does not fully resist Dante’s sealing options
Resists several Witch Time stacks and fight equally with it
Can counter Bayonetta’s BFR
Heat based weapons surpass Bayo’s resistance
= Hot
Is a Pizza Lover (based)
Disadvantages:
Weaker and less durable
Likely does not resist all WT stacks + Umbran Clock Tower
Loses the edge if the book is somehow removed
Was merely a Mii Costume
Sells his Devil Arms because he is poor (can't even afford good plumbing… bruh)
So now, here we are, and while there is a lot to cover, Dante should ultimately come out with a win more times than not. Firstly, yes, Dante is likely weaker than Bayonetta and requires scaling to higher dimensions in order to surpass her. He can also be quite cocky in combat, meaning Bayonetta may be able to take advantage of this at first, but wouldn’t be able to capitalize on this in a meaningful way before Dante can retaliate with his own lethal abilities. And this is where Dante starts turning the tables on the Umbra Witch. In terms of speed, both are at infinite/immeasurable, with Dante scaling to Demon Kings like Pluto and Argosax, and with Bayonetta scaling to foes like Aesir with Climax Tag. With speed being even, both will have plenty of opportunities to enact their best moves on the other, such as Dante bypassing Bayonetta’s durability and regeneration, sealing her, or power nulling her via changing her and her demons’ names, which she has no means to counteract.
The Book of Demons gives Dante a lot to pull from and limits many of Bayonetta’s options. The Book can keep her demons at bay due to them not having any resistance to it, and Dante can use his own Demon summons to match. There is also the fact that Witch Time isn’t as helpful as you’d think, given that Dante can resist several of its stacks and Bayonetta doesn’t start off a fight with every stack possible. The Book also removes the Umbran Clock Tower from the equation, and can put Bayonetta down for good via its existence erasure, which erases foes at a conceptual level. Sure, Bayonetta has some resistance to existence erasure in general, but the Book’s variation is on a whole different level. If Bayonetta tries to dodge it, she’s going to have a very hard time doing so with its massive range and teleportation options, alongside Yamato and Pluto’s spear keeping her on her toes.
Though what if Bayonetta targets the book? Well, that’s not reliable given that the book can regenerate with the souls it has, making any effort Bayo puts into that in vain. Dante also has options against Bayonetta’s wincons. BFR? The Yamato Shard and the Book of Demons can get Dante out of Inferno and right back in the fight, either by cutting a portal or the Book gaining the powers of a Demon there. Dante running out of stamina? The Banshee can help in that department with reviving Dante's health and stamina, with Bayonetta not having a way to break the link. Dante also resists most, if not all of Bayonetta’s weaponry, though the same can’t be entirely said for Cereza. She would have difficulty with his heat-based weaponry, and spatial weapons, just to name a few.
There’s a lot to consider with this fight, and plenty of directions it could go, but when it comes to a definitive winner, Dante just has the more consistent and superior means to put Bayonetta down for good. No matter witch way you look at it, it’s the devil in the details which puts the Son of Sparda on top.
Team Bayonetta
Stats
Focusing on direct feats for now, both Dante and Bayonetta are packing impressive physicality. For speed, Dante can destroy hundreds of thousands of raindrops alongside his brother Vergil in less than a second, clocking in to about over 1000 times the speed of sound for each, and on the high end can travel interstellar distances in his battle with Mundus, a feat worth many times the speed of light. Bayonetta herself, with Queen Sheba, can punch Jubileus to the sun in a short timeframe, similarly in the massively faster than light speeds. As for raw strength. Bayonetta herself is capable of throwing large satellites with just her damn legs, and Dante can block punches from the skyscraper sized Savior, which hits harder than any weapon on the planet.
While all these feats are impressive, their max potential lies in scaling and the cosmology of their verses. Dante/DMC is up first.
The Demon World is established in lore to have been half of the original universe, alongside the Human World, before it was split apart, meaning it’s size is at least half of the universe. However, it is currently shown to be comparable in size to the Human World, which is really just portrayed as the observable universe, meaning it’s more than likely the Demon World is just outright universe-sized.
This is noteworthy as Dante defeats Nightmare in DMC2, who is stated to be capable of destroying the Demon World’s very existence, alongside being capable of lifting it’s structure, both fairly cut and dry statements. Similarly, Dante ends up beating Mundus in the first game, whose defeat was collapsing both the Demon World and the Mirror World, a parallel universe. All three feats/statements are pretty solid, and additional support in the form of Argosax and Void Mundus make Dante solidly in the Universal - Low Multiversal range.
To address some stuff, while there are statements of the Demon World being infinite in size, a lot of these statements aren’t reliable. Endless/unending when referring to a location (or in general really) is usually a figure of speech that just means that it's seemingly without end, as in it extends too far to see the limit (i.e. the endless sea, the day felt endless). Extrapolating a much bigger size for the Demon World based on such vague/flowery language is very dubious.
Similarly, while the terminology used for the Soul statement mentions geometric dimensions in regard to "9D”, Peak of Combat never goes to any length to explain how these dimensions work, nor are they ever shown or stated to be qualitatively superior to the prior. Further context is needed for this.
Speed wise, Dante fights Ripper, who is capable of traversing every inch of the Demon World in less than a day (worth over 60 goddamn zeros), and more impressively, defeats Pluto, who can bypass the time axis through raw speed, which would qualify for infinite speed. Pretty simple.
With these insane cosmic stats, you might ask how Bayonetta can stack up. The answer is simple: very well.
In Bayonetta 1, Cereza was capable of defeating Jubileus, who, even while weakened, planned to override the Trinity of Realities. Bayonetta herself has gotten much stronger since then, and in Bayonetta 3, fought and defeated Singularity, who threatened to destabilize the entire cosmology, including Ginnungagap. How impressive are these? Well, a brief explanation on Bayonetta’s cosmology would be needed
One of Bayonetta’s main settings is the World of Chaos/Human World, which is basically a large macrocosm, housing at least thousands of parallel universes/worlds, but more than likely an infinite amount considering statements from Bayonetta 2 and checking the original Japanese raw from Bayonetta 3. Alongside this is Paradiso, a realm stated to be thousands of times bigger than an already large multiverse, and its counterpart, Inferno, should be similarly big. These three realms make up the Trinity of Realities, which is then housed below Ginnungagap, a realm who’s size compared to the Trinity is like that of the universe compared to Earth. Bayonetta is strong enough to battle villains capable of affecting a large majority, if not the entirety of this vast cosmology, putting her at Multiversal, but more than likely Multiversal+.
As far as speed goes, Bayonetta can keep up with the car Irenic, which can cross all of Paradiso in a single day. Given Paradiso is stated to be thousands of times larger than the World of Chaos, this clocks in at around quadrillions to quintillions of times faster than light. However, given the World of Chaos more than likely houses infinite realities via other statements, Paradiso being bigger than it would likewise put its size at infinite, and thus Irenic’s highest (and more likely) end being infinite speed.
Comparing the two, speed is rather interesting. While Ripper’s quantifiable feats far outclass Irenic’s (over 2 Quattuordecillion times specifically), Pluto bypassing the time axis and Irenic’s high-end speed are fairly solid. Given Dante and Bayonetta respectively can react to both, this means they scale to beings capable of reaching speeds beyond numbers, and have gotten stronger since then. While one can argue how much they currently upscale from said feats and who has the greater scaling chain, it’s likely both are going to be relative in this field.
However, the strength and durability comparison is anything but similar. Comparing their cosmic scaling, Bayonetta at minimum is thousands of times stronger than Dante using the minimum size of the Trinity of Realities, and is likely stronger to an infinite degree that Dante can’t hope to keep up with. While the overall scope of DMC’s cosmology may be grander due to housing 9 spatial dimensions, Dante scaling to that is rather dubious and unfounded. Bayonetta comfortably scales to the entirety of her own cosmology, which is above what Dante can reliably be comparable to as far as his own cosmology is concerned.
Ultimately, in a raw stat contest, while the demon hunter may have the speed to keep up, he ultimately comes short in raw power and durability when put up against the Umbran Witch, with any arguments for matching or surpassing her not holding much water.
Arsenal & Abilities
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It would be an understatement to say this part is complicated. How hax stacks for both goes back and forth. What once was a far more simple comparison has evolved with the introduction of Bayonetta 3’s demonic overhauling, and DMC’s introduction of the Book of Demons. Below will be a breakdown to the best of our ability.
Bayonetta and Demons VS Book of Demons
The Book’s effects of taking demon souls is an issue regarding Bayonetta’s demons. Demonic souls in DMC are more “complex” than how souls are defined in Bayonetta. The book can take pieces of souls mid-combat, and make pages for ability use. Bayonetta using her demons for a numbers advantage would be a boon for Dante. Can she counter this?
Surprisingly, the book seems to physically manifest itself to use its primary functions (soul removal) and breaking seals. The Book brings out spectral hands to consume souls, and Dante has to hold the Book to break seals. This opens the opportunity for Bayonetta to target and destroy the book. The moment Bayo notices the book soul-stealing one of her Demons, she would know the threat it poses. The Book also specifically only targets Demon souls, leaving Bayo herself unaffected by it. Dante fought a human named Frank in Peak of Combat, while having the Book, yet the Book has no page for him. Every statement for the Book specifies it only targets Demon Souls, as such all Bayonetta needs to do is limit her summoning of them until she destroys the book.
The Book also has statements that can potentially imply that it could give Dante the level of power of the Demon soul it acquires. This is never actually shown in-game, and as shown in the stats section above, Bayonetta (and her Demons) are far too high in power to justify such a jump. It would be more energy than Dante has ever experienced in his entire life, and borders on a no-limits fallacy to imply the Book can do this.
As for the Book’s possible regeneration, it is never fully explored in the series. We are told some Devil Arms can regenerate/use their materials to restore themselves, but the Book itself is never stated to be one of these. We also do not know if the regeneration it would have is 1-to-1 with Dante. As an example of possible limits, Cerberus (as a Devil Arm) was destroyed in Before the Nightmare (DMC5 novel) and never regenerated. It is also never shown if the Book can use its own abilities on itself to restore itself.
The Book is limited in that several of its functions are open to interpretation and not set in stone. Bayonetta has the intelligence and power to destroy it and can prevent it from feeding off her demons by not summoning them.
Bayonetta VS Banshee
Dante has a rather resourceful ability from a demon called Mourning Banshee. This allows him to place a link of sorts between himself and Bayonetta, one she cannot sever. This link will revive Dante roughly 1 minute after he is killed, without a known limit, so long as the link is kept in place. While Bayonetta cannot sever the actual link, she can counter by destroying the Book as mentioned in the prior section. The loss of the Book would also mean the loss of the Banshee page and its resurrection ability.
Another factor is it is unknown if Banshee restores Dante’s stamina (more on this later) when it brings him back. It is shown to at least restore health, but we have no evidence for it restoring Magic/Demonic Energy. The book being open to interpretation will be an occurring theme as we go forward.
Dante’s Existence Erasure vs Bayo’s Resistance
Bayonetta has potent resistance to being erased, having survived exposure to both Singularity’s erasure clouds and surviving the erasure of an entire universe. Why is this relevant? Dante arguably has a rather broken type of erasure from the Fallen Priest, which erases the target down to their most important aspects, soul included (wtf did they do to a series about pizzas and demons).
However, Fallen Priest never shows this ability in the game, not once. We do not know how it actually functions or is applied. At most we know the Priest’s entire moveset uses red energy, including summoning other Demons. The way the erasure is worded can also be read to mean it's attacking the target, like an attack to destroy them. To be fair, the actual symbol used for the Priest means to erase or wipe away. Outside of debating the semantics of the statement, Bayonetta should partially be resistant to its effects given her resistance shown above. While “aspects” may refer to names (more on this soon) and/or the soul, the method it is applied is most likely energy based given the Priest’s moveset.
Bayonetta can counter energy-based attacks with Pulley’s Butterfly, which switches the target from Bayo to five butterflies. Combined with the Climax Brace, this gives Bayo several escapes from the EE, and time to disable the Book it originates from.
Regeneration and Stamina
Dante’s main method of overcoming the AP gap is his broken regeneration, which can restore a hybrid like him from the loss of body and soul, as shown by Nero and Vergil. Bayo’s showings of negating angel healing does not stack up to regeneration this potent. That said, there is evidence Dante only has a limited number of these full restores.
DMC1 shows that the collapse of the Demon World would be fatal to Dante despite his regen, who was weakened from his fight with Mundus. When Dante or other hybrids have extended fights with someone equal (Dante vs Vergil) or someone stronger (Urizen), their stamina can take a toll, which drops all their stats until they regain it over time. Dante also notes in the DMC4 novel that he would rather avoid being turned to ash, which further reinforces the idea that regening from such a thing would drain a lot of energy/stamina. Given the massive power gap, Bayonetta would splatter Dante with each attack, which would eventually lead to him being too tired to heal immediately and lock in a win for Bayo.
As for Bayo herself, she can heal from full body destruction so long as her soul remains, and her soul will remain so long as it has a Umbran Heart. Dante’s regen negation isn’t fully explored in how it would affect the Umbran Heart, but the bigger issue is he lacks the AP to even physically harm Bayo in the first place.
Time Hax Clash
One of the big ones. Who has the better temporal abilities?
Bayonetta: Bayo has Witch Time, which increases her reflexes and also slows time. She can stack the ability a few times, and extend its duration with the Earring of Time and Selene’s Light. Furthermore, the Bracelet of Time allows her to activate WT without any build up and the Umbran Clock Tower gives another time slow on top of this. At its full potency, WT can even work on Aesir, the god of chaos who controls time and space.
Likewise, Bayonetta can resist the effects of WT from other users like Jeanne, and move in stacked Witch Time. She can also move in Aesir’s time slow/stop.
Dante: Dante has four different options of temporal hax. He has Quicksilver/QS which is a time slow, the Chronoheart which is the same thing, and the Bangle of Time which is a proper time stop. The Book of Demons also grants him Pluto’s Abyssal Spear, which controls space and time and can slow down in a localized field. Dante’s Chronoheart (technically all his temporal options) are shown to work on demons who can move through the Demon World’s temporal distortions with no issue, which may make them more potent than regular time hax.
Dante can move in Geryon’s time slow (which is the same as his Quicksilver) and can partially move in Urizen’s time slow as well. He is shown to be affected by Pluto's spear, though this may just speak to its potency.
Comparison: This one is a bit of a toss-up, but does have an answer. Bayonetta can resist time hax on par with Dante’s, even from Aesir whose power is described as transcending space and time and can connect multiple points in time together. Dante can resist several layers of Witch Time, but falls flat from being free of them all. The extensions and semi automatic nature of WT (via Bracelet) means it will outpace Dante’s potential attempt at stacking his own options. More importantly, Bayonetta’s entire fighting style is formed around abundant stacking and usage of WT. Dante has a single style based around temporal control, and is not shown to stack his options. Overall, Bayo’s time hax barely edges out.
Names
DMC has an in-verse mechanic of Demons having a Name, which is a conceptual/fundamental part of what defines them. While Bayonetta as a verse does not have this, verse equalization prompts a discussion regarding it for Bayo and her demons. It should be noted that Dante affecting Names in this manner is out of character, having only done once in his life to himself under Rebellion’s mental suggestion. The Book and Fallen Priest involve affecting Names though, so how does Bayo fare?
Bayonetta 2 features a demon called Malicious, which is noted to steal Names from beings. Bayonetta can fight this demon and retains her name. To be fair, “names” in Bayonetta are not explored and do not have the same fundamental nature as they do in DMC. What does, however, is Bayonetta’s Left Eye of the World, which can make concepts from nothing. While Bayo using the Eye in this manner is out of character, so is the possibility of Dante removing Names.
Perhaps the biggest question is should this even apply cross-verse wise? Peak of Combat makes heavy note of Demons being the ones with Names as a fundamental part of their being. Humans are never brought up in this context, at most having a statement that human and Demon souls are both complex. However it is the profiles related to Demons that specifies they have names as part of that soul, not humanity. As such, it's questionable if this would even work on Bayo, who is a human. At worst Bayonetta would only be affected when using Demon Masquerade, which makes her far more of a demon. However she does not need to use this to beat Dante, as will be discussed below.
Dante’s Fear Aura VS Bayonetta’s Resistance
This one does not need that much coverage. When sufficiently enraged (usually related to family or the loss of a loved one), Dante will release an aura which induces fear into humans or demons he fights. This is potent enough to bypass Demons’ inability to feel fear. Dante has only had this occur three times in lifetime (Death of Niel Goldstein, Chen mocking his family and father, and V bringing up Vergil who Dante thought was dead at the time). As such, it's quite unlikely Dante would trigger this aura when fighting Bayo, as she has no knowledge of Dante or connection to his family. Furthermore, she can resist similar effects from the Fury, Loptr, and Rodin.
Soul Hax Comparison
Dante has several weapons from Peak of Combat and even just direct showings of being able to affect the soul. Bayonetta has shown that she can resist soul rips from Resentment and Alraune, and will generally resist so long as she has energy left. She also scales to characters who can resist attacks on their souls from weapons like Shuraba and Chernobog. While Jeanne has her soul removed by Gomorrah, this was a surprise attack and oddly she seemed to lack a Umbran Heart, which she was later given.
Demon Control and Mind Hax
The Book of Demons has two pages that can control demons, Fallen Priest and Faye. Bayonetta can counter attempts to control her demons with Demon Slave. She can also resist Faye’s mind control and ability to insert false memories with her Umbran Clock crystal, which was shown to remove the effects of both (refer to Bayonetta’s resistance section).
Precog Discussion
The Book of Demons grants Dante access to a Demon that can view the countless possibilities of the multiverse, similar to the Beastheads from the DMC2 novel. While a very potent ability. Bayonetta actually can negate this. Bayo was able to act outside of Aesir’s view, who views all possibilities of the infinite multiverse, and was also able to outpace and overturn Singularity’s multiverse controlling Phenomena Affirmation (see resistances for Bayo). As such she would also be out of the Book’s view.
Sealing
Dante is noted to be better at sealing than his father, who sealed off the entire Demon World, and also sealed Mundus, power nulling him in the process. Sparda also sealed Argosax in a space without “exit”.
On the flip side, Bayonetta is shown to be able to casually angelic and demonic seals, and is noted by the Bayonetta 1 Artbook to be able to break one million at once. Bayo also scales to Jeanne, who can resist the power null of the anti-magic fields Singularity made. Most impressively, Bayo’s demons can break Singularity's seal on Inferno, which is larger than the Demon World in DMC. It should also be noted that the seal on Argosax was potentially assisted by the ancient Protectors clan, who helped Sparda beat Argosax, and thus not something Dante can do by himself.
Yamato/Spatial Hax
Dante owns a shard of Yamato, which can cut space and likely carries the durability-negating abilities of the full sword. When Balrog acquires a similar shard in the DMC5 novel, he uses it for close-range attacks, which may imply the range of a shard is limited. Balrog aso showed its possible for shards to be broken, which Bayonetta has the strength to do. Basically trying to attack with the shard opens the chance for Bayo to destroy it. It's also unlikely Dante would risk the destruction of his main method out of BFR.
Weapons
Lastly, a quick weapons comparison. Bayonetta resists Dante’s elemental weapons and will also resist his soul-attacking weapons so long as she has energy, Dante likewise resists her soul-attacking weapons. Dante can resist Bayo’ molecular destroying weapon Bazillion, but she likewise resists his anti-magic bullets given Jeanne resisting similar effects. Bayo might be able to partially energy drain Dante, and she can fight off his draining weapons with the Climax Earring. Both have healing and resurrection items that cancel out, and temporary invulnerability as well. Dante’s holy water working on her demons is unlikely given they fight off holy attacks from angels all the time. All in all, it's their abilities that will decide the fight, alongside power.
Summary
Dante himself resists several of Bayonetta’s best abilities but is ultimately outgunned and his best options are either limited or far too vague matter in the long run. Bayo having the option to destroy the Book of Demons is ultimately what seals the devil’s fate.
Tertiary Factors
When it comes to this battle, a factor not many seem to consider are the skills, experience and personality of these two combatants. There is a reason as to why the first two aren’t as important overall however. Both Bayonetta and Dante have displayed incredible skill feats and both have years of experience under their belts. Both have fought beings on the level of or considered gods as well as entities who have had the data of each of their entire multiverses. Both have displayed mastery over an extremely vast amount of weaponry and the capability to combat multiple varied enemies at the same time. So in terms of skill and experience, both can be argued to be completely equal in this category.
However, the last factor to consider is the personality of both. While both are not afraid to get serious and use their deadlier abilities, Dante has shown himself to be far more cocky in battle against his opponents and less likely to use his more dangerous abilities off the bat. Compare this to Bayonetta who while appearing to be just as cocky at first, has shown herself to take her fights far more seriously off the bat when faced with a deadly opponent. This is shown when even against her weaker adversaries, she is far more willing to spam and stack Witch Times to overwhelm them. While both show that they love to play with their adversaries, Bayonetta has consistently shown to be more willing to get serious off the bat compared to her devil hunting counterpart.
Overall, in terms of skill and experience, Dante and Bayonetta match each other. In terms of personality and in terms of using their more dangerous abilities off the bat, Bayo has a very slight edge in this department.
Conclusion
Advantages:
More solid arguments for being massively stronger and more durable
Resists or can evade Dante’s Sealing, Fear Aura, Soul Hax, Precognition, and other abilities
Can destroy the Book of Demons, which limits Dante more powerful abilities
Abilities are less open to interpretation
Can destroy the Yamato Shard, preventing spatial cutting and opening up Dante to BFR
Superior Temporal abilities, which makes her “faster”
Can outlast Dante’s healing and stamina
Resists Anti Magic
Less cocky in combat
= Hot
Got into Super Smash Bros. above her opponent, and Sakurai even stated she could have potentially evaded Galeem's multiversal genocide…
Disadvantages:
Forced to limit her summoning of Demons, at least until the book is destroyed
Demon Masquerade is a death sentence so long as the book is intact
Does not resist spatial cutting
…But was so complex to play that Sakurai decided to have her get nuked in favor of Kirby, a simpler character
As you can tell there is a LOT going on with many different ways to interpret one statement or another. Both are essentially equal in regards to skill and experience, with Dante’s historically cocky attitude being a slight detriment in how he approaches fights. Unfortunately for the Devil Hunter, anyone even close to the strength level of Bayonetta, and his methods of working around that gap are extremely unlikely to work in the end.
Being much weaker and less durable means Dante is going to be notably reliant on his regen to stay in the game. This regen is not unlimited however, and is notably dependent on his stamina, which has been shown plenty of times to affect the speed at which he regenerates damage. With such a gap in strength Bayonetta can destroy Dante far beyond what he’s had to heal consistently, wearing him down more and more as the fight goes on. While speeds may start off even at first, Bayonetta’s usage of Witch Time can give her the edge, especially given her frequent usage of the ability compared to Dante’s time options which are nowhere near as consistently used by him. Effectively, Bayonetta can destroy Dante many many many times over, wearing him down with each regeneration until he is unable to properly heal.
With his healing not making the cut, this leaves Dante to depend on his many other weapons and abilities to make up for it. Despite having many abilities (read: the Book of Demons), Bayonetta has either a counter for said ability or can resist said ability. While the same can be said about Dante when it comes to Bayo’s skills, this would return the fight back to square one where he’s struggling to keep up with the massive AP and durability difference. Even the few abilities that debatably could work such as the Banshee resurrection or “Name” existence erasure can be countered by Bayonetta simply destroying the Book beyond repair, which given her technical speed advantage can be pulled off without much issue. Without any options to reliably quell the stat gap, Dante is back to relying solely on his regen, which as covered can only do so much against someone who can quite literally vaporize you in many different ways.
Many things about this fight didn’t turn out the way we expected, but ultimately the tried and true method of “hit him really hard” works too well for Bayonetta, with the Son of Sparda having no means of ultimately getting past that issue. In the end, Bayonetta just had the means to dominate this fight, leaving this devil crying for the last time.
Final Tally
Team Dante (7) - KL, Soma, Tsar, Momo, Hi Hi, Behemoth, Cyber
Team Bayonetta (7) - Dragon, BluBlader, Shulk, Speedy, Rina, KK, also Cyber
Before We Go…
With that, we wrap up this round of bonus blogs! Big thanks to everyone who contributed to each of them, can’t wait to see you all in two weeks for the season premie-
…
What’s that? It’s not happening yet? We got done ahead of schedule and the season is coming later than normal?
…
Well, this is awkward.
…
Should we… should we just keep going?
…
Alrighty then. Cue the music.
Nah it's seems like bullshit tie bayonetta wins
ReplyDeleteWhy you think the DMC side focused more on overanalyzing texts and translations, while Bayonetta's side just kept it to on-screen stuff from the mainline games? Noticed how the "Rodin's bracelets" argument was completely ignored. Otherwise, we would get an anti-climactic easy answer to the debate, just like Wargreymon vs Charizard.
DeleteYeah I am ok with using lore due to limitations in videos games but I feel
Deletelike if they wanted to somewhat portay dante or vergil as universal they wouldn't have Virgil being killed by being sliced a lot or barely showing any impressive feats of physical power.
The Tie makes sense TBH. If we're going to bend this out of context like this. I can LIVE with a Tie but Im going with DeathBattle over a Fanblog run by DB's fans.
DeleteAh yes moron you are going with death battle over a fan blog even though the current researchers of death battlefor the last 6 years where working on the g1 blog originally and all state bayonetta stomps dante you complete fucking idiot. No the death battle where they make the argument dante is faster when they dint dint calculate the much faster hitting meteors feat that they directly mention that is actually better researched because you feel like it idiot even though death battle had no higher qualifications lmao.
DeleteThat's pretty good, Goku solos both though.
ReplyDeleteGoku loses if of you twke the dimensional tiring and speed scaling literally
DeleteGoku solos both neg diff because "Nobody beating Goku". Sorry it's just how it is, I don't make the rules.
DeleteSo goku loses to both got it
DeleteI dunno DEATH BATTLE! Said themselves that Spongebob can defeat Goku so Spongebob beats all 3. All joking aside, Goku's not THAT strong. Characters like Mickey and Bugs that have Toon Force and crazy reality warpinh abilities or character that have versatile abilities and arsenal such as Mario have no problem beating Goku.
DeleteGoku
- Multiversal Power/Durability
- MFTL Speed
Mario
- High Multiversal Power/Durability
- Infinite Speed
Sonic
- Multiverse Complex Power/Durability
- Immeasrable Speed
Nah, SpongeBob could defeat Goku, Mario, Sonic, Dante, and Bayonetta because of his insane Toonforce and is the true god among all. Nobody can defeat him.
DeleteIt's surprisingly easy to confirm which of the two wins, without breaking your brain nor relying on fallacies. Just rely on the same method that actual Death Battle used to confirm why Mob cannot beat Tasumaki. Mob at best can create enough energy to make a broccoli grow into the size of a city. And even he admits that he would struggle getting rid of it, by himself. Just moving it from one location to another, would have proven difficult to him, by his own admission. While Tatsumaki arguably would deal with the giant broccoli with less trouble. She can be scaled to entities on dragon level, who in the canon of OPM, are those that can destroy multiple cities easily.
ReplyDeleteSo how does this apply to Dante vs Bayo? Well, the answer is even clearer and simpler to arrive at, using that same line of logic. Dante needed help from Vergil to attack the Qliphoth, a city sized tree. And they only managed to get rid of it, by attacking the Qliphoth at its weakest points, the roots. Dante didn't have enough raw power to just tear it from the ground and throw it into space, and much less to destroy it with a beam attack or his brute force alone. While Bayonetta could have just nuked and evaporated entirely Mob Psycho's broccoli and DMC's Qliphoth with The Phantom.
This makes logical sense
DeleteHa! No. Dante nor Vergil needed assistance for cutting down the Qliphoth. The only thing Dante needed was Yamato, the blade that can freely open and close dimensional rifts across the verses without tampering with the seals that contain the two realities that make up their cosmology. This is why Dante desired Yamato, and how he intended to solve the Qliphoth initially when Urizen rose. Similarly, Vergil was fully capable of fixing the Qliphoth himself, and says as much. Dante only follows Vergil to "insure he gets the job done," and "keep an eye on {Nero's} old man."
DeleteIt's not related to their physical prowess in the slightest. Secondly, even if it was...you do realize the Qliphoth is stated to have been essentially a tree of life that shaped the Demon World's landscape, right? It is a plot device that put Vergil's power on Dante's level. Regardless of it's SIZE, the POWER the tree held and can dispose is vastly higher than the city it lorded over. Furthermore, it's not only city in size. We're told in the DMC5 Artbook, and partially shown this in the ending cutscenes, that the Qliphoth's growth starts in the Demon World and grows to unbelievable size with said realm before spreading into the Human World. It's "city" size is just all we SEE of it, and the tree's size is likely vastly larger. (And that's ignoring the fact the radio at the beginning of the game saying that the problems/outbreak in Redgrave was not LIMITED to Redgrave and was plaguing "everywhere.")
Most likely PIS.
DeleteAlthough do we know how long it took Vergil and Dante to cut down the Qlipoth tree? Not like it's a normal tree anyway, it literally gave all life in the DW and stuff.
And here comes the fallacy defenders. Anyway, just have Bayo counter Dante with Rodin's bracelets and be done with it. As someone reminded me, Dante isn't just conceptually weak to light/angelic weapons, but even to Rosemary flowers, because that's how Bayonetta works. Humans/homunculi, angels/Paradiso, and demons/Inferno are all competent and powerful enough to bring down the 3 realities, and if I had to pick someone to deal with those three sides at once, it would be Bayo, not Dante. At least we get to SEE actual multiversal disasters bringing down alternate universes (canonically) in Bayonetta. With DMC is all talk and no bark.
Delete...
DeleteExcept in DMC, Demons are affected by Holy items and Dante notably is NOT thanks to his Human Heritage, hence why he can survive attacks from Holy Spears from the Fallen in DMC3, touch the Holy Artifact known as Alan's Tear, use his Holy Weapon from PoC, and can use Holy Waters to damage Demons and bosses alike throughout DMC1-4.
It's not related to fallacies. It's just being aware of the information in the verse.
Lastly, did you not read the section where it came down to whether or not Dante's superior hax would win out over Bayonetta's superior strength? Dante doesn't have to outpunch her because he can simply outhax her. And this applies to her verse as well. Dante might not be able to punch as hard as Bayo if he were in her shoes, (unless he stole the Demonic Powers of someone who could with the BoD, which is totally viable), but his hax allows him to sidestep that problem and handle all of the Trinity. Especially since they can't kill him.
The same applies in reverse. Bayo is strong enough to be able to red mist any opposition she comes against in DMC but she can't outhax them. She just DOESN'T have the necessary means to keep them down like Dante can, but she would still successfully defend their world by repeatedly beating them down into submission with her AP.
Bayonetta will just punch him and turn into a blood puddle. He has never regenerated from that
DeleteSo you skipped over the Mourning Banshee's Immortality. Or Nero regenerating from just his Soul. Also Abigail (which Dante scales above) literally performing the feat in the anime. As well as Vergil regenerating from being killed WHILST having his Existence Warped via a Name change, which is covered by the Blog to be conceptual alteration of one's existence and related aspects.
DeleteY'know, the feats of Regen that have Dante regenerating from a blood puddle and BETTER (Y'know, like his SOUL, or being simply unable to die because of the tether he's created on Bayo via Mourning Banshee.)
All of these needed time to be done. Time that dante wouldn't have in a battle to the death and that realistically bayonetta could bypass once she did that
Delete
Delete"Dante’s main method of overcoming the AP gap is his broken regeneration, which can restore a hybrid like him from the loss of body and soul, as shown by Nero and Vergil. Bayo’s showings of negating angel healing does not stack up to regeneration this potent. That said, there is evidence Dante only has a limited number of these full restores.
DMC1 shows that the collapse of the Demon World would be fatal to Dante despite his regen, who was weakened from his fight with Mundus. When Dante or other hybrids have extended fights with someone equal (Dante vs Vergil) or someone stronger (Urizen), their stamina can take a toll, which drops all their stats until they regain it over time. Dante also notes in the DMC4 novel that he would rather avoid being turned to ash, which further reinforces the idea that regening from such a thing would drain a lot of energy/stamina. Given the massive power gap, Bayonetta would splatter Dante with each attack, which would eventually lead to him being too tired to heal immediately and lock in a win for Bayo.
As for Bayo herself, she can heal from full body destruction so long as her soul remains, and her soul will remain so long as it has a Umbran Heart. Dante’s regen negation isn’t fully explored in how it would affect the Umbran Heart, but the bigger issue is he lacks the AP to even physically harm Bayo in the first place."
"Dante’s main method of overcoming the AP gap is his broken regeneration, which can restore a hybrid like him from the loss of body and soul, as shown by Nero and Vergil. Bayo’s showings of negating angel healing does NOT stack up to regeneration this potent. That said, there is evidence Dante only has a limited number of these full restores."
DeleteLiterally a full concession his regen is greater than she can handle. Hence why her section was dedicated to reasoning how she could incapcitate him after an extensive amount of time, because she has NO MEANS to permanently put him down.
This is also why they focused on destroying the Book of Demons, because alongside his regeneration and the Book, there is no way she can permanently rid herself of him. She exists, thus HE exists. She'd have to destroy the book to then red mist him over and over, and that requires her knowing about the Book's properties and it's relation to his abilities before it immediately game ends her from trying to use her Summons or Demon Masquerade, which are some of her go-to options. (Meaning her first response literally strips her of power or just outright kills her.)
It also means she'd have to red mist him repeatedly when it's outright said by the blog that speed wise Dante is either superior in finite, or superior in their immeasurable speeds (and only relative if you ignore scaling trees and speed amplifying items), and Dante literally only needs to hit her ONCE with any of his more esoteric abilities.
Mind you, it's covered by the blog that taking damage, fearhax, madness hax, blood, etc. makes him stronger and he can evolve in the midst of combat. While I'm not arguing he's going to jump from Low Multi to Multi+ AP, I am going to go out on a limb and say that as the battle passes he will be getting faster, and more energy to battle with. (As he can drain her magic to use for himself).
Meaning he can fight near indefinitely due to his Regen, Book, and Demonic Empowerments that she'd feed into, boosting his stats and ability to hold out.
Unless you believe she can red mist him endlessly before he literally hits her once (some of his haxes being unrelated to even hitting her, like his Concept Manip with Names, meaning he could just not attack her PHYSICALLY and still ultimately win, alongside haxes that negate her durability and defenses Void Manip/Yamato's Spatial Manip/Etc.), she could win, but it's so unrealtistic and relies on so many assumptions, (and someone sticking a probe into her to fight optimally in a way she never has before), that it's vastly more likely Dante would land his one hit before he gave out.
Especially since they outright gave them both items that grant them infinite magic/Demonic Energy.
No his regen is better than hers not more than she can handle. Destroying the universe is more than enough to put him down.
DeleteThat’s…not how that works. She’s never faced regen on his level, so it IS more than she can handle. The best regen she’s ever faced are Angels that can undo dismemberment, not regenerating from complete physical and spiritual melting. Secondly…no. His regeneration isn’t tied to the physical form. You could destroy a universe on his face and atomize every part of his body, and as seen with Nero, he’d still come back. Hell, Dante completely erased Vergil—Whose fundamental CONCEPT and EXISTENCE was rewritten at a FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL, as well as had his SOUL shoved into an inanimate ARMOR, to a level that obliterated his brother “without a trace,” and Vergil STILL came back.
DeleteThat’s literally regenerating from having your existence altered and detonated at a conceptual level—And he did it after a battle with Dante, who explicitly negates the regeneration of Demons. Like…It’s very clear that nothing Bayonetta has can permanently put down Dante. At best she can wear him down to prevent him from returning immediately, which is enough to win for them. At least, that’s the case before the Book of Demons came into play and gave him the abilities of the Mourning Banshee, which makes him immortal so long as a single aspect of his prey should live. This means he will NEVER die, and will NEVER tire, and will NEVER be incapacitated for a period of time long enough for her to win. He’s simply unkillable to her.
Conversely, Dante’s more esoteric abilities straight up kill Bayo. And she dies as soon as she tries to use Demon Masquerade. And she can’t use her Summons, because if she does he immediately gets their power and is no longer behind her in AP. That’s ignoring that Dante doesn’t even need to do that to win, as he could simply Concept Hax her. Or Seal her. Or oneshot via Dura Neg options like Yamato or the Abyssal Spear.
Essentially, whilst the conclusion is a draw, one thing that is agreed on by both Team Dante and Team Bayo is that regardless of who you think wins, Dante will not die in this fight. At best if you’re Bayo-sided he’ll just tire out enough for her to win if she plays the most optimal way possible, attacking first in ways she’s never lead with before to avoid his immediate counters to everything she has.
And at worst, not only will he never die to her, he will completely steal her powers and the powers of her Demons to become an even more powerful Devil Hunter, becoming an unstoppable force of nature that would torment the Demon World, Inferno, Mirror World Paradiso, etc., with no difficulty.
Lol no they showed that dante can still die stop it already with the mental gymnastics
Delete…
Delete“… Dante also notes in the DMC4 novel that he would rather avoid being turned to ash, which further reinforces the idea that regening from such a thing would drain a lot of energy/stamina. Given the massive power gap, Bayonetta would splatter Dante with each attack, which would eventually lead to him being too tired to heal IMMEDIATELY and lock in a win for Bayo.”
Their wincon quite literally is tire him out if he doesn’t have the Book of Demons because she can’t kill him.
WITH the Book of Demons he’s entirely immortal, and requires the Book to be destroyed (if it can be—That detail in unknown and entirely speculation for now), for her to even begin to tire, as with the Mourning Banshee’s abilities, he will NEVER tire. It’s not mental gymnastics. It’s literally just observing the details they themselves wrote for this blog.
And she can tire him especially with her regeneration and superior power lol
DeleteDebatable, depends on if banshee restores stamina
DeleteNot to mention that, as I covered before, they gave both items that grant them infinite magic, Dante has weapons that can endlessly drain her magic to amplify him, her demons will grant him more magic (via blood, fearhax, pain, etc.), and his Devil Trigger restores his magic. So…how is she going to drain him dry before she kills herself via her go to moves (Summons & Demon Masquerade)? She can only win that way if she plays the fight out as optimally as possible from the start to win the fight and knows about Dante’s abilities beforehand. She wouldn’t and doesn’t. It’s that simple.
DeleteBecause she has more stamina and is stronger and faster plain and simple she can dodge more attacks
DeleteShe doesn’t have more stamina. Dante fought his brother Vergil for 39 days with no food or drink, displaying only minimal rests. At best you can say she has more reliable infinite magic items, but that doesn’t matter because she doesn’t resist having her magic drained, Dante has several means to do that and thus have equally infinite magic. She’s not faster, because her only speed advantage was a stack of Witch Time she can’t use thanks to the BoD. If she uses it, she loses it. And even if you assumed he couldn’t take it (just gave her the extra ability to resist, even though she specifically does not), Dante has multiple speed boosting items to make it relatively worthless. Quickheart, DT-SDT, Alastor, etc. Alongside his own Time Manipulation abilities, whilst inferior, he is able to fight it off. She was given a strength advantage, but as stated by the blog it isn’t enough to do anything to Dante in the long run because he simply has too much to fight back with and can stay in the game via his immortalities and regenerative capacity. And her dodging better is subjective and down to skill, and both Dante and Bayo were basically given dodging from opponents who have multi+ amounts of information/fighting styles, with Dante’s feat having Chen utilize his Precognition for an extra layer and Bayo’s feat having Singularity use his Phenomenal Affirmation (which seems to work as multiple destiny-deciding haxes.) So they were even at their highest skill feats, with either taking the lead dependent on how you think skill is estimated.
DeleteBayo had only one explicit and undebatable advantage. Everything else Dante either matched, exceeded, or had a counter to it that made it worthless. Hell, technically that also applies to her strength advantage. The only difference is she won’t lose it if she plays the fight out of character and has prep time. Everything else she literally was only Dante’s equal or inferior in.
She does and she is stronger and faster so she unlike him she can afford to not die
DeleteStronger? Yes.
DeleteFaster? No.
And Dante can afford to die endlessly and not lose. So it doesn't matter.
She is faster and he can't afford to die endlessly lmao
Deleteshe is not naturally faster
DeleteShe is
Deletevia what
DeleteBayo is not faster by any stretch. She's either comparable in speed, or much slower than Dante.
Deletethe reason Rodin's bracelet's were ignored is because they wouldn't work on Dante as Glitchednight explained why
DeleteBayo is NOT Faster than Dante. Dante is
Delete"While Bayonetta could have just nuked and evaporated entirely Mob Psycho's broccoli and DMC's Qliphoth with The Phantom."
DeleteWhat? How do you figure? lmfao
Bayonetta is much faster than dante lol
DeleteREALLY good blog guys. I really respect that you guys acknowledged the criticisms Nero vs Hellboy got and did your best to address them here. I really wasn't expecting a tie though! I was personally a bit more convinced with Team Dante (the book and Banshee helped convince me and I think potential high end scaling) though Team Bayo did a good job too. Overall, really satisfied with this and I think you guys all did a good job.
ReplyDeleteMore blogs though, huh? Interesting. Not sure who Arceus or Toph is gonna fight (I'm guessing Gaara rematch or Terra from Teen Titans?) Kratos is definitely fighting Asura and I'm definitely excited for that.
Nah universal argument for Dante still seem bull
Delete^ Why? It looks pretty blatant to me.
DeleteBlatant?? Mmmmmmmmmmmm bot really
DeleteHow come?
DeleteWhere has dabte destroyed a universe
DeleteDoes he really need a direct feat to be universe level? He already scales to other being with feats like that (Mundus, Nightmare, Pluto). Go back and reread the section on uni DMC if you still don't buy it.
DeleteNah those argument are still bull
Deletehow?
DeletePretty blatant all things considered lol.
DeleteSo you are telling me you made a whole Frankensteinean, nightmare-fuel composite of Dante, so illogical that not only it brings down the narrative of his own games, but would make even Lovecraft scream in horror at his messy existence, and you all could still not find a way for it to take down a single one of the three main Bayonettas, who can even fuse in the last chapter of Bayonetta 3, be scaled to Singularity Definition, summon Rodin, or that borrow his bracelets all the time? And this is considered a tie?
ReplyDeleteA huge chunk of the blog was dedicated to reducing Dante into an abomination that in an insult to life and common sense.
Truth
DeleteTbf, Dante is Dante, it's all canon
DeleteExcept as covered by the blog, everything they went over is explicitly canon to the series, and thus all the abilities and feats they went over were all viable to use for Dante's section. At best you can say that it's a Dante that's never existed before, (because he's never had every weapon and item he's ever used at once), but that goes for pretty much every game character they cover with an extensive history, because that's the nature of video games, with each entry of their series focusing on new weapons or gimmicks to use for that game that doesn't make it a copy of the previous.
DeleteThis is why before Bayonetta even gained the Fusion at the end of B3, for the original Death Battle they were both given everything KNOWN for them at the time, every weapon from both B1 and B2, and every weapon and Style from DMC1-4.
This principle is especially prominent in the Megaman Titles, because he only ever carries up to a dozen or so unique weapons per game, but for every Megaman Death Battle and Blog, every single weapon across his titles is considered, because that's just how video games work.
Also, scaling to Singularity Definition was outlined to not be able to beat Dante because of his regeneration. Summoning Rodin immediately makes him go into the BoD, which empowers Dante. And her bracelets give her power on par with Rodin only when in Masquerade, which is a death sentence due to the BoD. At best she could use the weapons she summons to fight Dante, but as covered in the blog none of those could permanently put him down thanks to his immunity to holy weapons granted by his Human heritage, and their other haxes (like Sloth's), would EMPOWER his Demonic Heritage. None of those factors would have ultimately mattered against an opponent like Dante, thanks to his unique arsenal and physiology.
Please tell me you're doing Brainiac Vs Soundwave and not pushing for Kang Vs Brainiac like a lot of people are. Eon Vs Kang is far far better.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you want Soundwave to die so badly?
DeleteI prefer Brainiac vs Trazyn the Infinite (DC vs Warhammer 40k) to happen instead
DeleteBecause it's Brainiac's most popular matchup after Kang and Kang Vs Brainiac just doesn't work for me as a matchup but Joaquin's idea works for me as well.
DeleteAnything to prevent Kang Vs Brainiac from happening.
I agree with you but this is death battle we're talking about and their
Deletelikely going Brainiac vs Kang which is very disappointing
Why no kang vs brainaic
DeleteIt's Dante from the DANTE series
ReplyDeletedamn dante about to die if this gets made into an episode (again)
ReplyDeleteHow so? Even this Fanblog said that Dante and Bayo would probably end in a Tie. But again this is JUST a fanblog. And if we're going by the lore in DMC 5 then Dante is just WAY to powerful.
DeleteAlso this blog is statign stuff that isn't really accurate like Bayo beign Faster than Dante or having more durrability. Bayo literally dies in her own games by the third installment while Dante basically shows that he hasn't had a limit yet.
A LOT and I mena a LOT of this blog is basically just based off of assumption and just downplaying Dante's feats. This isn't accurate.
That being said this blog is really just taking a LOT of things out of context. Even IF they argue that Dante Vs bayonetta is a Tie
So wait, are the upcoming blogs Ellie vs Clementine, Brainiac vs Arceus and....Toph vs Kratos?
ReplyDeleteNevermind! Looked on the description and saw that only the first two images were meant to be together.
DeleteAnyway, I don't think the season will be coming THAT much later and you might have to push some of these for later.
They said in the latest DB Cast that there planning for may release.
DeleteGreat work as always. Still not sold on Universal Tier DMC tho.
ReplyDeletewhat is happening
ReplyDeleteMore bonus blogs, eh? I'm surprised you didn't put Yugi Vs Ash on the docket. I remember last Summer you guys had that on the list, but had to move it cuz the new episodes were coming out faster than expected.
ReplyDeleteAh well, I wasn't dying for that matchup to happen. And who knows, if any of the predictions for the new season have been correct, I'm sure we'll see that blog not as a bonus what-if, but as a prediction to an actual episode. Ash's story has ended, and Yugi's has ended long ago, so it's only natural they do Ash Vs Yugi in the show proper. Of course, they could also do the ever popular Ash Vs Lucy Heartfilia. I've seen some people floating that one around.
Hulk beats broly by the way
DeleteIt's been three years lol
DeleteAnd i am still right. Same with scarlet witch vs zatanna, iron fist tv spo, hervul3s vs sun wu kong ect.
DeleteBroly still destroys the Hulk sweetie. Keep crying those salty tears out for us, why don't you?
DeleteAlso Scarlet Witch vs Zatanna, Iron Fist vs Po, and Hercules vs Sun Wukong are all still accurate. Cope and Seethe some more, please.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteEvery good, this fight really does depend on what you agree with and buy when looking at the two overall. I enjoyed the read even though it was an incredibly long one for me.
ReplyDeleteSorry but this is 100 percent False calling Dante MUCH weaker than Bayonetta as well as downplaying his durrability. Espeically know that we know that Bayonetta's durrability has a Limit while we haven't even TOUCHED his limit yet.
ReplyDeleteSo I have a few Grievances with this so called “analysis” of yours.
ReplyDelete1. You use NON CANON weapons to Boost up Bayonetta’s powers: The mastersword is NOT one of her weapons. Not even close. It’s a perk that she has when you equip Link’s Costume for her. That’s not her arsenal. Same with Bazillions which is a weapon you can unlock after you complete the game in its initial run. That’s more or less a New Game Plus weapon. Not really canon to the story.
2. Bayonetta is NOT multiversal. I don’t know how you came to this idea that she’s Multiversal Plus but at most she might be Low level Multiversal of Dante is Low Multiversal by your book. You haven’t proven that she’s stronger than Dante. And I say this because a LOT of your scaling is based off of assumptions and nothing concrete. In fact a lot of your statements contradict what Vsbattle Wiki has stated which lists Dante As High Complex Multiversal vs Bayonetta who is at most LOW complex Multiversal.
3. You Downgraded Pluto’s feat to just UNIVERSAL. Pluto is NOT Universal at all. He split the universe into TWO separate universes in his lore. He didn’t just break the universe. He CREATED two different Universes according to his own lore. That at least puts him on a Multiversal Level. And this was someone that Dante managed to force him to flee from battle before he got amped in his DMC1 form. And his speed is practically imessurable. He’s considered fast enough to be faster than his rippers who can cover the whole underworld than less in a day. That’s considered imessruable speed
4. The Book of the Damned can NOT be closed by Bayonetta. It basically only answers TO dante. I dunno where you got this idea that she can close the book when it basically only answers to him.
5. I dunno how you came to the idea that Dante is “much weaker” than Bayo. I looked through this WHOLE essay of yours and I didn’t find one instance of where you proved this. You seem to leave out a LOT of her conditioned feats as well. And you don’t take that into account. Fact is there’s no proof here that Dante is weaker than Bayonetta.
6. She’s not more durable than Dante. Im sorry but that’s just NOT a thing. That’s something that YOU made up out of the blue because in ALL of the games We’ve seen Dante take all kinds of Damage and he just brushes it off. Bayonetta on her end has a HUGE flaw in her weakness when she actually dies by her own Infernal Demon Gamora after her Umbrian witch breaks. Which mind you happened because of the limit that she finally reached. Prior to that we’ve seen her variants die off in different ways before. One of them gets crushed, another one literally gets eaten while the other simply dies because Bayonetta actually fires her gun into her chest. To Say that Bayonetta has no weakness and to say that she has more durability than Dante is a false statement on your end to say the least.
I don't remember bayonetta firing a gun to her own chest; the only time someone got fired in the chest (to the best of my memory) is when she shot her mother Rosa in the chest in the 3rd game
Delete@oopsey I don't recall saying that she fired a gun into her own chest. I do recall her getting tossed around by Singularity and her needing help in the last battle. That I do recall.
Delete"I don't recall saying that she fired a gun into her own chest."
DeleteWhen you literally stated in your 6th paragraph "Bayonetta actually fires her gun into her chest."
And to clarify, she didn't "need" help, but was given help by her alternatives who soul projected by their own will to help Brave Cereza.
@Oopsey Ok I see what you were saying now. See this is in you for misreading my post. This was in reference to her variants who died in different ways. One of them died by having cereza fire her gun into its chest. Doesn’t seem like a very durable moment for her or her varient. And to correct you no cereza needed help. She was getting beaten by singularity almost in most of their battles and it wasn’t in her favor until her varients helped her out. That was shown in the cut scene.
Delete7. Where are you getting that his healing is not making the cut? How are you determining that? This is such a stupid statement to make because it was confirmed, and you pointed this out that Trish literally stabbed Dante in his own chest with his Demonic Sword and it did NOTHING to him. So to say that he is WEAKER and that he is LESS durable compared to Bayo is not true at all. Dante was unharmed by Argosax who is easily stronger than almost ALL of Bayonetta’s Rogues Gallery. He was able to endure a stab from the Yamatto which we now know can SPLIT Demons and their powers in half (BTW the Anti feats section of Yamatto is wrong too. You forgot to point out the fact that Vergil knows how to use Yamatto and knows how to apply power to it) Where as Bayonetta in her own game was absolutely pegged and taken down by Balder after their battle, Mind you Balder didn’t even TOUCH her. She needed to use Witch time for most of her strongest feats like the building, or even the satellite feat in Bayo 2. In Bayo three she dies in Many different ways . In fact Im about to list them off. Her bayo 1 varient was literally crushed to death. Her Japanese variant was squeezed to death which didn’t even require her watch to break. Chinese Bayonetta was practically infused with Singularity . Egyptian Bayonetta got sucked up into a black hole, Where as Dante in his first game literally got sucked into Nightmare it’s self, and Nightmare has the ability to envelope the whole Underworld He easily regenned from Sid who was one of the most powerful enemies in the DMC anime . He casually took attacks From pluto in Pluto’s own dimension. Keep in mind Pluto is actually Moving at imessureable speed during their battles nd Dante is matching it and even taking hits and brushing them off as if they’re nothing. I really don’t need to go on. Anyone reading this poorly written blog knows that Dante’s Durrability exceeds Bayonetta’s and that his strength is at the very least ON PAR with hers. I think this was written by someone in the comment section of the Bayo Vs Dante Video and they just didn’t like the outcome. The verbiage of this is very familiar. Oh and FYI the Novels aren’t canon. They aren’t written by itsuno or anyone else.
ReplyDelete8. The Book of Demons can’t be destroyed, At least Not by Bayonetta of all people. So that’s not really a Thing. And again Where are you getting this idea that Dantes durability and AP is NOT equal to Bayonettas especially when in the game Dante has survived WAY more deadlier attacks than Bayo> Bayo minded you who needed her sister to re-enter earths atmosphere, who couldn’t even tank a hit from Gamora who was a BASE level Infernal Demon, where as Dante survived being crushed by Leviathan (you didn’t mention that) he survived driving his bike INTO hell, then actually surviving the trip OUT of Hell where as Bayo easily fainted after getting swiped by Singularity and couldn’t even survive her own unviverse getting absorbed (she actually had to escape that through a nexus point)
DeleteThe Bayonetta variants never died. It's easy to assume they died because they crystalized and their bodies shattered, But that's not how Umbran witches die. When a witch dies, her soul is dragged down to hell, as we can see from Cereza's death at the end of the game. If they really died, their bodies would be destroyed and their soul would be left remaining for inferno to drag them to hell, which never happened. What really happened to those variants is that they were absorbed by singularity and their worlds. Singularity, the main antagonist of the 3rd game is known to have properties of a black hole, and can turn himself into one to absorb entire realities.
Later at the end of the game during the fight on the moon, Bayonetta is able to free the universes absorbed by Singularity himself. Mind you, these variants aren't the strongest Bayonettas. That would have to be Brave Cereza, the Bayonetta in the 3rd game, who is by far the strongest Bayonetta in the multiverse, not being locked up for 500 years and reaching the height of her potential. And we can assume her regenerative abilites are the strongest in the 3rd game due to that. She literally was literally stabbed in the body by Luka in his Faerie form and immediately regenerated right after, unfazed.
When you mentioned Bayonetta (1?) being defeated easily by her father, that never happened. When she returned Brave Cereza back to her timeline, she changed her own future, making Bayonetta recover her lost memories and awaken the left eye, which must've took a toll on her as she fell unconscious momentarily after awakening such a strong power so suddenly. In the 2nd game she's never defeated by her father. All their fights throughout the game have ended with no victor. I don't understand how you believe that she got pegged by her own father lol
Also, Bayonetta didn't need Jeanne to re-enter the atmosphere. She would've been just fine. At the end of the 1st game, they destroyed the body of Jubileus to prevent it from destroying earth.
And regarding her death in the 3rd game; after exhausting so much of her power in such a weakened state, her Umbran watch breaks. An Umbran is a timepiece that contains a power that allows a witch to stay alive for eternities. The magic contained in the watch is crucial for a witches contract with inferno. If it were to be destroyed, the witch will have lost the ability to control infernal demons, which is the case at the end of the 3rd game. As her watch broke, she lost her ability to control her demon slave on Gomorrah, who was able to knock Cerezas soul out her body in her most vulnerable state. And as for Jeanne, you cannot forget that what happened to her in the 2nd game could've definitely happened to Bayonetta herself if she didn't save her. These are still powerful demons, and Bayonetta & Jeanne are still human.
@Oopsey 1. No they died. It was shown and confirmed that they died. That's how bayonetta (Brave Cereza Varient) got their powers. I mean it's shown that this is ONE of the ways they died as how you described but it's not the ONLY way that they can die. In fact we see a few times that their watch broke which indicates that they lose their powers so without that they're pretty much defenseless. They are open to typical attacks without their witch watch in tact. They did die in the game. We don't see them by the end. Its an indication that they died. I reject this premise sorry to say.
Delete2. I am aware of that but that's not to say that they didn't die. Also we see that by the end of the game it's indicated that the universe singularity supposedly absorbed survived by the end since the ending indicates that the universes were still around. Granted they were unlivable but still they remained to be in solid condition. We don't see the variants surviving by the end other than evaporating into thin air.
3. This happened in a different universe though. Not the alphaverse where singularity has absolutely control. This is a problem I have with the third game since a lot of the rules established IN the third game makes no sense. This is supposed to be the most powerful variant of Bayonetta there is yet she can't even fight some of the most basic entities in the game without getting help from her variants' or luka or any other counterparts? I mean this whole idea that the third variant is the most powerful yet she needs the most assistance is contradictory to say the least. On top of which this is totally retconned in the origin game when we are shown that singularity went back in time to ensure his own survival only to get beaten by Jeanne when she was only a child. It seems like Kayima doesn't know how to be consistent when it comes to power scaling but these events does not do kayima or any of these characters any favors. In fact when I looked back at the other games we're seen that all of bayonetta's rogues gallery she had help from other people. Mind you that in her own game these entities are weakened versions of themselves since its canon that they are weaker in the human world.
4. Getting stabbed by Strider, who's a base level enemy is not the same as getting stabbed by a sword that is known for separating your powers from your body. Along with getting stabbed by Lucifer which is a weapon from the underworld that can implode you from the inside out. She may have survived being attacked by a base level Luka. That is not the same as surviving a sword that can drain your powers. And I again reject that notion since the third game shows how easily she can be taken out by her own demons by the end of the game. Giving her such a weakness didn’t help her at all.
5. Because she did get pegged by her own father. By the end of the chapter in the first game, the last chapter, not the epilogue chapter she gets pegged by her own dad after their battle. That’s shown IN the game it’s self so that did happen. In the second game A young Balder not only was able to counter Bayonetta’s witch time but he also had to aid her in her battle against Aesir. I don’t understand how you can make such statements when the games themselves are showing you the events that I am talking about. Lol
6. Yes she did. She needed Jeanne’s help to re-enter the atmosphere as it was shown in the game when they were both re-entering into earth’s atmosphere near the end of the battle with Jubilius she and Jeanne were standing close to each indicating that they were using each other to shield themselves from impact. That’s shown IN the game it’s self.
Delete7. And that’s my point. You and the rest of the bayo fans are trying to hype bayonetta up to this multiversal level and what not yet giving her such an exploitable weakness to an enemy that frankly brags about what he supposedly can do as opposed to actually DOING it, goes against this idea that she is able to beat Dante. Espeically when it is shown that in Dante’s very own game he can tank the likes of Pluto, Mundus and Urizen who are ACTUALLY multiversal beings that actually have Multiversal feats to them. And that’s not even getting into crossover territory where we are shown in marvel Vs Capcom 3 Dante is able to beat someone like Galactus who can absorb the entire multiverse and has even shown to be able to withstand the likes of Scarlet Witch and Mephisto who's the son of one of the most powerful elder gods in the Marvel universe. Its funny since This blog mentions Bayonetta’s Switch weapons as canon yet doesn’t even bring up Dante’s Marvel crossover which itusno considered canon himself. The fact that you are describing such an exploitable weakness already puts her at a HUGE advantage since Dante himself was shown that he doesn’t have a Limit yet.
i'll respond to this l8r cause this takes too much time to write
Delete5. You didn't clarify if you meant the 2 or 1st game lol. In the second game, my statement applies since it is true that Bayonetta and Balder have kept up with each other in combat. And since you stated he "pegged" Bayonetta after their battle where Bayonetta awakened the left eye of darkness, then your statement is false. After their battle she fell unconscious due to awakening the left eye and changing her own past which allowed Balder to take Bayonetta and revive Jubileus. It doesn't make sense if you're stating that he pegged her after their battle falling from the ithavol tower?
Delete6. In the end of the first game as they stand back to back re-entering the atmosphere, you can infer that maybe they were staying close to each other to withstand impact but that's not confirmed or shown. Especially in the beginning of the game in chapter 0, we're not shown what happened after they do the exact same thing. But if we look in the 3rd game after the fight on the moon, Bayonetta re-enters the atmosphere by herself, and it is shown she withstood the impact.
7. I'm not saying anything about "multiversal level" this and that lol so don't feel the need to generalize; What I've said so far isn't to challenge your argument on Dantes strength and which of the two is stronger, but to rebuttal some of your claims/statements made against Bayonetta.
@oopsey
DeleteI appreciate your response and the time you took to respond. That being said I'll respond to the points you made.
I assumed you played the games so I naturally thought you’d knew what I was talking about but I’m sorry for giving you too much credit. That was a mistake on my end. But the second game doesn’t apply either because in that game Bayonetta relied on two entities to help her beat Aesir since a younger version of balder was required with her battle ageist Aesir. So even in that sense I was correct. You seem to be the one that’s making false statements and trying to pass them off as fact. And in the first game you’re incorrect. No she fell unconscious after balder zapped her telepathically . Balder needed Bayonetta as part of his ritual to revive jubilees. That happened after their battle in the last chapter. It’s shown in the game like there’s not a lot of room for debate when the game is showing you this
Yes it is? When they’re both hurling towards the earths earth at the same time and using each other as a shied with Bayonetta saying “just stay close to me” that’s kind of a big hint. And then there’s Jeanne telling Bayonetta she’ll send her home and that if she dies there there’s no one who’s gonna save the world. Again that’s literally shown in the cut scenes. And I don’t get what that has to do with chapter zero either. Just because it was a cheap little throwback it doesn’t change what was shown on screen and what Jeanne was saying to Bayonetta about dying there. Those are some big context clues my friend. Also in the third game she barely survived the impact and took a massive hit. She was barely shown that she could stand near the end od the third game. I mean she was even struggling to keep her gun steady against singularity so that doesn’t really help you. Does media literacy not count for anything these days?
But you didn’t rebuttal anything though. You made misinterpretations of scenes in the game that shows you otherwise, you misread a post of mine when I was pretty straight forward on this and you completely removed a lot of context throughout most of the scenes that paints a different picture so you really didn’t rebuttal anything. Mainly this is due to the lack of media literacy you’re showing me.
9. If anyone benefits from this “Hit her very hard” Tried and true method, it would be dante. Since he can actually hit HARDER and more importaly FASTER than Bayo can since he actually is faster. It was proven on DB through the rain feat which you absolutely IGNORE and it was also shown in the gameplay when he can use his styles to actually cover large distance of ranged land withina blink of an eye. And since we know that Bayo’s Witch Watch can actually BREAK by physical means (you see it do that multiple times in the game) that means all Dante has to do is hit faster and harder until Bayo’s watch breaks and she’s about as good as dead.
ReplyDelete10. The Tally is not fair. Cyber gave his vote to Dante that means he shouldn’t have been able to give his vote to Bayonetta as well. You can’t vote twice when determing a Tally. That alone Makes Dante the winner in this.
Again this is a very SELCECTIVE essay and you basically just Downplay all of Dante’s feats and make up things that aren’t true. Fact is in all the games we have yet to see Dante’s limits of durability and speed where as we’ve actually SEEN Bayo’s limits multiple times in Bayo 3. The fact that Dante has the ability to survive being Atomized and even regenerating himself while he is in a COMA puts him above Bayo who basically can get eaten,s tabbed, shot to death and even pegged by Balder without even being looked at.
I can see why you’re not on DB’s research team and why you’re not affiliated with them. If I were them I’d be embarrassed to be associated with this shoddy research as well.
you're free to make your own blog and analyze the entire thing youself lol
Delete@oopsey Or I could criticize this blog for their questionsable researching tactics. I'd rather do that. ;)
DeletePS: If we're going to include Bayo using the Master sword as part of your argument then I can use Dante's other features as well when he made appearances in OTHER GAMES that he wasn't a part of .
ReplyDeleteIn Marvel Vs Capcom three in Dante's ending Dante was able to beat Both Dormamu AND Galactus in his canon ending to the game.
Dormamu who is easily an outerversal enemy who even could reach to Omniversal at some points and Dante managed to absoultely humilate him. Galactus who's one of marvels most POWERFUL enemy was easily outmatched by Dante in his ending.
He even managed to make Mephisto crap in his pants and Fear him in the actual ending. Mephisto he's the blood son to one of the most powerful Elder Gods Cthon who even the Scarlet Witch couldn't beat. She had to contain him to her soul.
So if you're going to include things like the Mastersword something she never weilded then you have to include things like Dante beating Dormamu and Galactus at the same time in marvel Vs Capcom 3.
That alone scales him WAY HIGHER than Bayonetta and her paltry anti feats of getting ganked by her own Infernal demon.
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ReplyDeleteOh and also Dante was able to hold onto the Soul Stone without actually sacrificing a Soul. Again since you want to bring in outsides game sources into this. AND he was able to resist the Ultron Sigma Virus something that THOR wasn't able to do.
ReplyDeleteAnd Thor's Durability easily out tanks Bayos.
We can do this all day.
Oh and Bayonetta NOT summoning her demons would be at a BIG disadvantage towards her since in a LOT of scenes she relies on her demonic pacts with her infernal demons to aid her in her battles as well.
ReplyDeleteThe only pact she has is with madama butterfly. Her infernal summons are her summons.
DeleteAs the player in the game (specifcally the 3rd) it kind of requires you to use demon slave and summons to defeat opponents, but Bayonetta doesn't need summons to keep up in combat, and shes shown it before. In the 1st game she's really only used them to finish off opponents
Delete@oopsey They are her summons cause of the pact since by the lore of the game in order to get their powers one must make a pact.
DeleteAnd if she has to use her summons to finish off her opponents then that means that she relies on them to do all the fighting or at least the heavy lifting for her. So that just completely contradicts what you are saying Oopsey
DeleteActually I forgot to mention that in bayonetta 1 & 2 she used infernal summons not to "defeat" the angels she countered in the battlefield but her pact with inferno literally requires her to send angels to hell for a living lol, so for practially every battle she single handedly defeated each angel (with the use of wicked weaves here and there of course) and then fed said angels to infernal demons to satisfy them
DeleteAnd yes.. I know they're her summons obviously due to her pact with inferno/Madama butterfly.
DeleteAnd also yes, practically most of the umbran witches abilites derive from the Dark Arts, which revovles around the usage of spirit energy
@Oopsey Gotta correct you on something. I saw the cutscenes and yes she was using her demons that she made with the pact to defeat the larger demons that she has Trouble with. That’s kind of what they’re there for. And part of the pact is she sends angels to inferno but WITH the help of her demons that she made the pact with so no she’s not single handedly sending demons back to inferno she has help. In fact most of the heavy lifting and fighting is done from the demons she summons. In fact you bring up wicked weave which is a move that requires the demon she made a pact with. You just proved my point.
Delete@Oopsey and if They're her summons that she made a pact with (since by lore thats how you get the powers of those summons) then how is she single handedly taking out angels and sending them to hell for a living if most if not ALL the time she's relying on her borrowed magic of the infernal demons that does her fighting for her? What you described and what I described in the same thing. She is requred to send a certain number of angels to Inferno and those demons are REQUIRED to help her. So she IS relying on Demons to send back her enemies. And these demons she uses as a crutch are jusr fodder to the enemies Dante has faced.
DeleteThe blog had me until they argued that Dante could use every single power from every single demon via the Book of Demons, which does seem like a no limits fallacy, especially when we consider Dante never does anything of the sort in POC.
ReplyDeleteAlso mildly interesting that even by giving Dante a massive buff by giving him every single power of almost every single demon he has ever encountered, the verdict is still a tie.
Peak of Combat was recent too, and a large portion of Team Dante's arguments uses the Book of Demons for the crux for their arguments, so without this massive buff, one would think that prior discussions surrounding these characters (DM4-5 Dante), that the verdict would lean towards Bayonetta, but a fair amount of people have always claimed that Dante would win.
Honestly just seems like a vast amount of people greatly underestimate Bayonetta (and overestimate Dante), which is understandable, since her series is much less popular than DMC, so there are less people knowledgeable of her verse/vouching for her in these discussions.
In terms of what? Feats? In term of Feats Dante has already forced Pluto to retreat. Pluto who is if not on par with Mundus could give him a run for his money. If this is something IN the game that Dante can do then yes POC is a scale tipper in Dante’s favor.
DeleteTies also happen when people can’t decide on a winner. The fact that even HALF the people who run this flawed blog aren’t convinced Bayo can win does say a lot. Even DB’s team agreed that Dante would win and they ran the research down to a T
But even WITHOUT Poc the Favor would still lean towards Dante since Bayonetta doesn’t have any means of ending Dante’s life given his durability and even his Amp in DMC 5. Which puts him above anyone in Bayo’s rogues gallery. I mean given the fact that he can tank Urizen who was able to enslave an entire underworld which is an entire endless universe shows what Dante can do. Also this blog likes to bring up Bayo’s Nintendo weapons as canon to tip in her favor which shows who is REALLY bias here. Without even bringing up the fact that Itusno considers Dante’s Marvel Vs Capcom appearances canon. Which by that logic would tip in Dante’s favor since he was able to hold an infinity stone with no problems and he beats galactus in his own ending.
I would agree that people underestimate Bayonetta. IF it wasn’t for the fact that it was shown that she has a limit. Its not really about popularity anymore after it was shown that she dies in her own game. That and even most of her own games. Her feats seem to be conditional.
So the blog is flawed because they don't claim Dante that can win? lol? If the blog is flawed according to you, then arguments on either side wouldn't matter regardless. And DB's research was so terrible that they somehow misidentified what Witch Time was (one of Bayonetta's MAIN POWERS) despite it having clear descriptions in every single game. DB's research team can be consistently terrible anyways (City Level Dio?), so they aren't a good metric for good analyzations.
DeleteBayo's Nintendo weapons weren't even brought into the verdict, and the Chain Chomp, at least, has some basis in canon, as odd as it may seem.
Dante's MvC appearances are clearly not canon since they fundamentally break the timeline of DMC (ex. Vergil showing up at all). Capcom considers MvC to be it's own separate canon as well. And crossover appearances are also starkly different to having items in their series games. Trying to claim MvC is canon at all just shows your absurd bias, lol.
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DeleteYou really should read my post again. Because I said the research is bad because they make contradicting points. They say that Bayonetta can close the book of the damned which is a power amplifier in dmc peak of combat but that was not even shown in the game that’s the book can be closed. On top of that they included Bayonetta’s Nintendo weapons which are non canon weapons since they were only included to celebrate Bayonetta being a switch exclusive. While not bringing up Dante’s marvel vs capcom appearance . I made those points in my response to you but its obvious that went over your head. How are you going to bring up non can weapons and factor that into your equation but not bring up Dante’s appearances in Mvc? DB is flawed sure but in this case they did their due dillegence. They were spot on about Bayonetta’s ability in which time which they said she can only stop time. That’s mentioned multiple times in the lore but again this seems to have went over your head. It’s not so much their research is bad, you just didn’t understand it. But at least they didn’t go as far as to make Nintendo weapons canon like g1 tried to do. Thats a whole nother level of moronic researching. They may not be the best in terms of of good analyzers but they’re a lot better than a blog who claims that Bayonetta is the winner of a match yet they still can’t get a majority vote on that lol. So that’s at least fair voting. You’re a pretty ridiculous blog when your own team is split on who can win a fictional battle yet still give the win to your bias fave.
DeleteDid you not read the blog? They literally brought up her chain chomp weapon and the master sword into the equation yet intentionally left out Dante’s appearances in marvel vs capcom. That sounds like bringing up non canon weapons to me. Also how does chain chomp have some basis in canon? When did we see chain chomp or Bayonetta donning a samus aran armor in the original Bayonetta game? Oh wait we didn’t. Same like we didn’t see ronin running around hyrule or Enzo chatting it up with Mario in those games. How come we didn’t see kid icarus in the bayonetta games or Fox Mcloud teaming up with Jeanne during her quests? So its ok to include Non canon Nintendo weapons and factor that in but its not ok for Dante and in MVC appearances? And if we’re going by itsuno statements and following the rules of creator statements then yes according to itsuno Dante’s appearances in marvel crossover games is considered canon since he’s the one making that claim. Itsuno never cared about continuity in the first place. He’s made many statements that conflicts with continuity so he could care less about that. He even stated that he would only allows his characters to be in the game if they referenced some part of the storyline in his previous titles. So again if we’re going by creator statements then yes Dante’s appearances are canon. He said it. Not me.
Also it doesn’t help your case that even capcom backed him up in that statement too. But I find it hilarious and also ridiculous on your end when you’re saying my biases are absurd when you’re trying to make chain chomp canon in the Bayonetta series. Not to big on self awareness and checking your own biasses are you BlueSmurfCat ?
Lol, no, none of that went over my head, and it actually seems like everything I wrote went over yours.
Delete1. Bayonetta 1's Nintendo Costumes Weapons (Master Sword, Arwig Guns, Galactic Bounty and Mushroom Princess Costumes) weren't even mentioned in the actual breakdown of the battle, meaning they weren't used as a potential wincon, or for scaling.
2. Bayonetta 2's Chain Chomp is actually canon in-game, "in-lore" Rodin actually traveled to Japan and captured the creature. It just happens to look like the Mario Chain Chomp, and is named the "Chain Chomp," because IT IS A REFERENCE, but is nonetheless canon. The Chain Chomp is about as canon as any of her other weapons that she obtains by Rodin. Also, the multiverse actually exists in Bayonetta canon, and Rodin can travel to different universes; meaning, who knows, maybe there is some alternate universe in Bayonetta's world where some variation of Mario and Fox exists (ex. "The Arwing guns are based on the blueprints of space fighter obtained by Rodin").
3. MvC isn't canon to mainline DMC, fullstop. AFAIK, Itsuno has never said MvC Dante is canon to DMC either, so you will need to provide a source on that. And him asking MvC Dante to have some references to events that occur in DMC is to be expected, since every single MvC character has references to their own source material (ex. Wolverine, Megaman, etc. etc. etc. all reference their own games), yet those characters still considered to be in their own seperate "canon". An equivalent to asking why didn't the blog use MvC Dante, would be like asking why they didn't use Wonderful 101 Bayonetta, Smash Bros Bayonetta, SMT Bayonetta, or all those other games she appeared in. There is a huge difference between having items in your own game that have basis in lore that are references to other properties, and actually just straight up being in a different game/canon.
4. DB was not actually "spot on" about Witch Time; it's not even mentioned anywhere in the actual games that Witch Time is a time stop. I don't even think you've actually played some of these games. And it's not that I "didn't understand" their research, or it was just "bad", it was legitimately just incorrect.
5. This blog didn't even say Bayonetta is the winner.
6. This blog doesn't say Bayonetta can close the Book, they say she can destroy it. PoC isn't even fully released regardless, and the developers are actively changing certain parts of the lore. It's a bit dubious that this blog even used it, but that's beside the point.
But something tells me this is going to go over your head, again, you condescending prick.
7. And yes, I'm inclined to think you may have some bias, considering you have a concerning obsession with this blog; you've been spamming comments for 5 months and decided to start an argument with me despite my relatively lukewarm take.
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DeleteSomething tells me you're just skimming over my responses and not even reading them. I genuinely don't think you've even played a single Bayonetta title based on what you're typing. There's no point in arguing with you since you're just talking past my points. You probably didn't even read even the blog in its entirety either since you were losing your mind about "Bayonetta closing the Book," despite the blog never saying she could do that.
DeleteI would say a lot of this went over your head especially given how you’re trying to make non canon weapons that appeared in a ported version of the first bayonetta as “canon” But that’s just you being obtuse. Or willfully ignorant. Anyways I digress. Lets address your points. Shall wr
Delete-Yes they were. I even showed you where they were in part one where they tried to use Bayonetta’s master sword and Chain chomp as part of Bayonetta’s weaponry in this “analysis” (Calling it an analysis is being generous by the way) So that means they TRIED to use this as some kind of wincon or bad attempt at power scaling but unfortunately for you and the owner of this blog that’s not how it works. Its not Canon. Full stop, point blank period her Mario weapons (and other weapons as well) and Zelda and other stuff aren’t canon. Period.
-Yeah no that’s bull shit. Chain Chomp is about as canon in game as Fan fiction you read on ao3. If that was the case then how come we don’t see Rodin traveling to Hyrule and chatting it up with Zelda or Link? How come we don’t see him hanging out at the mushroom kingdom and at peach’s palace? Because its not canon. That’s why you don’t see Rodin hanging out with other characters in other Nintendo games . Same with a lot of other weapons like Bazillions since that is only achieved AFTER you play the game in a new game plus mode so that’s not Canon but again Chain Chomp is not canon. Otherwise we would’ve seen them in the original game. Not a ported title that needs amibos and DLCs to access them.
-What a ridiculously moronic thing for you to say. The multiverse in context of Bayonetta canon is only limited to OTHER universes that resemble Bayonetta’s home universe. There’s no Hyrule in Bayonetta 3. You can’t travel to the Mushroom kingdom in any of the Bayonetta games. Stop the Cap and spare me your cognitive dissonance BS. If that’s considered “canon” to you then I can say Dante in Marvel Vs Capcom is canon since Itusno mentioned that he could place Dante’s cameo appearances in other games in his canonical timeline. So if we’re going your ridiculous standards as what canon is then that applies to dante too. For some reason though this blog didn’t mention that. Tell me you’re bias without telling me your bias there blud.
-Yes it is. According to your standards Dante’s appearances in Marvel Vs Capcom is considered canon since Itsuno said that he can place all of Dante’s cameo appearances in his storyline some how. So yes if going by your foolish standards is some how a deterrent that Bayonetta using the master sword is “canon” according to you then Dante beating galactus and holding a power stone without damage taken to him is certainly canon especially when itsuno said the could place Dante’s appearances anywhere in his storyline.
And him asking MvC Dante to have some references to events that occur in DMC is to be expected, since every single MvC character has references to their own source material (ex. Wolverine, Megaman, etc. etc. etc. all reference their own games),
-Its hilarious how you’re changing your argument and moving the goal post lol. Honestly I find this tactic of yours quite humorous. So first you say references aren’t canon. But then later on according to you refences IN GAME are canon when it applies to bayonetta? If I needed proof that you’re a bias fool that would be it. So if they referenced Dante’s story in his storyline IN Marvel Vs Capcom, then that would mean it would be canon since they referenced multiple parts of his story in that game. Deadpool mentioning Nero. Mephisto appearing in Dante’s shop . Again this is going by your standards lol. (BTW SMT Dante easily outscales bayonetta in both variations)
-You’re not getting what I am putting down so I’ll just say this again. This is SUPPOSED to be a blog analyzing Dante and Bayonetta and see who would win. Not Dante Vs Bayonetta but including all of Bayonetta’s non canon weapons that didn’t even make an appearances in the other games. So if you’re using Bayonetta’s Mario weapons that aren’t canon as a factor why not include Dante’s appearances and cameos in other games especially when itsuno says that his cameo can fit into his main timeline? That’s just really sus. Also there’s no difference in what you’re saying. The items in bayonetta’s ported game for the switch are not canon. They were included as some sort of gimmick after Bayonetta became a switch console exclusive. Otherwise we would’ve seen Rodin in Star Fox or him palling around with Link and fighting Ganondorf in Zelda. How come we don’t see that again? Oh right cause its not canon. Spare me this nonsense dude.
Delete-They actually were since they cited the lore talking about how witch time gives the player the ability to slow time down. That was actually IN the game. Which I don’t believe you actually played given the response of this. I don’t think you’re the right person to consult when it comes to these titles since im seeing a lot of evidence that you didn’t play these titles in question.
-That’s exactly what it is though. YOU did not understand the research that DB was putting out so you deemed it incorrect dude to your misunderstandings. That’s on you and that’s your error. No one elses.
-They mentioned Bayonetta as the winner at the end. Which is ironic since their own team couldn’t even vote on that. Great logic huh? Lol
-Ok then that’s even more ridiculous since its not even shown that the book can be destroyed or even closed or damaged at some point. But none the less we have statements from Devs hinting that such a thing can’t be done and we have statements from Nebula Joy and Capcom saying that the game takes place after 3 and before 4. Also Itsuno was never one for continuity. He never cared about that. I give the only credit to this blog for using THAT but then that credit is taken away since they’re making up lore about it. Lore that was never stated.
It's also ironic how you’re taking this to a personal level all because I decided to call you out on some of these erroneous claims you made. Again this is a YOU problem. No one elses. You made ridiculous claims that weren’t true and I decided to call you out on them.
Getting mad at me won’t make your false statements valid no matter how many tantrums or curse words you throw at me. You were making challenging claims I decided to challenge them. That’s all there is to it.
I looked at your points. They were just bad takes and further proof that you didn’t even play the bayonetta games but I got the gist of what you were saying. I mean you didn’t even know how witch time worked which is pretty hilarious since you claim to be a fan of the series yet couldn’t even cite any sort of references IN the game that backs you up. But yeah I agree that even destroying the book is more erroneous since that was not a thing stated in poc. I just find it funny that you’re defending some wannabe Death Battle rip off for their bogus research like trying to make the Master Sword Canon in a bayonetta game a thing yet some how think the actual team at DB that has an actual fair system is some how nefarious. I find this display of hypocrisy rather odd is what I am say.
DeleteYou've been fuming for the past 3 hours, deleted everything and typed something new. You genuinely lack reading comprehension, and like I said, there's no point in arguing with you, since it's guaranteed you're not even reading this completely or just having trouble understanding it; ex. the blog's final tally WAS A TIE. You're fucking reading Team Bayonetta's opinion on the fight. Scroll up and you'll see Team Dante's opinion where they say he wins. I'm sure if Team Bayonetta gave their analysis first, and Team Dante went second, you'd be satisfied, since you would have misread the blog saying Dante wins.
DeleteAnd you clearly haven't played these fucking games, for fucks sake; if you're such a big fan boot up Bayonetta 1, 2, 3, or Origins and look at the description of Witch Time. It tells you right fucking there.
I mean you responded to me so I’m just responding to you. And I’ll admit I like my remixed responses better. But both posts I made addressed your points. Calling them points is being generous tho.
DeleteAnd maybe your eyes don’t work or you’re just projecting your own lack of reading comprehension but that is what I was getting at. The end of this blog makes claims that bayonetta would win and that the “devil will cry for the last time” yet then shows that even their own team can’t come to terms with a winner? That’s the problem. This goofy blog is making claims yet even their own team mates is drawing on a tie. That’s ridiculous. You can’t claim someone is a winner at the end of your blog yet show your voting tally’s being tied. They literally did that in this TWO PART BLOG. That’s not how it works. You either vote for a winner or if you can’t then make a statement saying our team couldn’t decide. THAT is what I am getting at which they did at the end.
Also in case you didn’t know they actually refer to it as Temporal Control. Which only grants users heigntened senses to move different speed so that’s not really a time control. That’s just body control. Something Quicksilver can counteract. If we’re going by this logic.
Come on dude keep up. At least watch some youtube videos if playing the games and reading the lore is too much for you.
So you admit that it's not a time stop? So you admit that you were wrong? And that when you were actually yapping on about "the lore talking about how witch time gives the player the ability to slow time down," and "they were spot on about Bayonetta’s ability witch time which they said she can only stop time. That’s mentioned multiple times in the lore but again this seems to have went over your head," were just straight lies? Despite being so stubbornly confident in your points?
DeleteAnd you are still reading Team Bayonetta' verdict. Team Dante's verdict says Dante wins, "it's the devil in the details which puts the Son of Sparda on top." Do you not understand the concept of a tie? Team A says A likely wins, Team B says B likely wins, therefore... it's a tie.
>Come on dude keep up. At least watch some youtube videos if playing the games and reading the lore is too much for you.
Something, something never argue with a -----.
I think you have some kind of inability where your thought comprehension is stunted or maybe you just don’t comprehend what I am saying. Time is the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues. So when Bayonetta is just speeding herself up THAT is her SLOWING DOWN time. As I’ve stated before and I never said she could control or STOP time. Dante can since his Lore says he can actually CONTROL time with Quicksilver but you wouldn’t know that since you don’t play either games. And as I stated before these concepts seems to go way above your head. No surprise there.
Delete-Ok and? What is your point? I can still take issue with what “team bayonetta” is saying especially when they’re including Bayonetta’s non canon weapons and passing them off as canonical. And it’s still the second part of their explanation. Hailing Bayonetta as the winner yet showing that your own research team can’t even decided is ridiculous beyond reproach which I’ve explained but again.
Cognitive thinking and YOU don’t seem to go hand in hand.
Again that doesn’t surprise me at this point though.
When you’re speeding yourself up that’s manipulating YOU around time. When Dante uses quick time he’s actually manipulating time it’s self to his advantage. Controlling time to your advantage trumps Simpling speeding up your body to make yourself faster than everyone else. I’ve been pretty clear on that yet you being you that just went over you. Not a surprise at that point.
DeleteThis one I can own and say that I misquoted DB because DB never said that she could stop time. Just alter herself around it vs Dante actually controlling and manipulating time to his advantage. Yeah she can’t stop time. That’s not a thing. Just like saying her Nintendo weapons are canon. It takes a real idiot to say something as astronomically stupid as that. I guess that’s why you are the way you are.
But yes that’s true. A lot of things went over your head like how you don’t know what’s canon and whats just a cheap game gimmick like Bayonetta using the master sword . Along with your concept of time when you don’t how controlling time vs controlling yourself around time is different. You’ve proven that this topic went over your head and that you’re an idiot but I came to terms with that.
Maybe you should get a different hobby as opposed to talking about a game series that you never played. Unless you like showing people that you’re a brainless moron that doesn’t understand time concepts or knows what canonicity is. If that’s the case by all means knock yourself out.
I am really confused as to why you're getting angry with me when you don't understand the topic of the conversation yourself. You maybe should familarize yourself with the source material before you engage in a conversational topic that you're not familiar with. Like Im sorry you don't understand that Controling yourself Vs Controlling Time are two different things. But again thats your baggage. I'll let you deal with your own mental problems and shortcomings.
DeleteCome to think of it now it makes even more sense that Dante can just negate Bayonetta's paltry attempts with quick silver. That just basically renders her witch time useless. Kayima must really hate his fanbase
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DeleteAnd if you're manipulating time around yourself, by definition that is controlling time. And slowing time would not actually trump speeding yourself up. Bayonetta can resist time slows and stops, meaning she would be able to resist Quicksilver and the rest of Dante's time manipulation powers, but Dante would not be able to resist Bayonetta's Witch Time, since Witch Time would be a self-amp, not a wide-spread area time-slow.
DeleteAnd if you're attempting to argue that Quicksilver can fucking do anything time related, meaning just turn off Witch Time's self speed amp, then you are actually just wanking. Quicksilver and the rest of Dante's time control powers (along with Bayonetta's) have specific functions, they can't just do anything time-related.
The only Nintendo weapon that I bothered to defend as canon was the Chain Chomp. And the Chain Chomp isn't even in Bayonetta 1's switch port because it is a Bayonetta 2 exclusive weapon. I don't know why you can't it get through your thick skull that something can be a reference to another property without actually being canon to that other property (meaning Bayonetta's Master Sword isn't the actual Master Sword, meaning it doesn't get all the feats and capabilities it has from the Zelda games). And again, those fucking Nintendo weapons WEREN'T EVEN USED IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BATTLE. Meaning it didn't effect her scaling, nor did they attempt to use it any arguments for the actual battle. Taking SMT or MvC Dante, or 101 Bayonetta or SMT Bayonetta, drastically changes the battle since that would radically alter their scaling, and again those are versions of those characters from different games and canons entirely. And as stubborn are you are to accept, some of the Nintendo costumes and weapons that were added, *were given bonus materials* to suggest that they may have some basis in canon (ex. Rodin creating the Arwing guns / capturing the Chain Chomp).
And it's rather unsurprising why you can't understand why it's frustrating to discuss this with you, but I've repeated myself enough.
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DeleteShe's not controlling time though shes just moving really fast. When you control time you control everything that is around including your opponent. Ergo Controlling time > Some wannabe making themselves faster.
DeleteNo she can’t she can only speed herself up but time it’s self remains the same. She can’t resist quicksilver if Quick silver’s whle purpose is to control time and everything around you.
How can dante NOT resist Bayonett’s withc time if all it is is just essentially her being fast? Time Control is controlling time around you and as shown in DMC 3 he controls everything around him in the screen. Again Time Control > Bayonetta making herself fast.
“And if you're attempting to argue that Quicksilver can fucking do anything time related, meaning just turn off Witch Time's self speed amp, then you are actually just wanking.”
-Well if that’s how you feel then you’re an idiot. That's all there is to it. You're an idiot and you don’t know the lore since the DMC 3 lore states that Dante controls time. That’s literally the explanation of quick silver. It’s literal ability is to control time and everything around you. Hence why its able to cancel out bayo's cheap attempt at copying him. In other words that trumps bayo’s wannabe attempts to be dante. So yeah basically you’re just an idiot.
-Chain chomp isn’t canon though pea brain. That’s what I am trying to say. Chain Chomp, The Master Sword all of these weapons they’re not canon and they’re not part of the bayonetta series. I dunno why you have trouble understanding that. Maybe you have a thought comprehension process but these weapons are not CANON. THAT is why I am saying that using NON CANON WEAPONS in this analysis makes no sense. Yet they didn’t include Dante’s MVC appearance? That’s kinda of suspicious. I brought that up many times before but once again, it goes over your head. Nothing about you surprises me at this point.
-Maybe you're blind or maybe you're just mentally inept but Did you not read part 1 where they actually mention the master sword as part of Bayonetta’s weapons as well as Chain Chomp? That was literally mentioned in part one you illiterate buffon. Yet according to you it wasn’t used. Even though it was mentioned as part of her weaponry right? Lol. Great logic there buddy. Really. Just Top notch.
-So it would alter the scale to add those elements yet they some how add in the fact that Bayonetta can use the master sword and use Chain Chomp despite the fact that Bayonetta nor rodin was seen galloping around the mushroom kingdom or Hyrule? So those are canon even though Myiamoto didn’t say jack shit about that and we don’t see Rodin in the other games? I almost feel bad for you but then I remind myself that you only have yourself to blame for your ignorance and stupidity.
If its “bonus material” added in as some kind of gimmick then there is no basis in canon. That’s why we don’t see Rodin in Hyrule trying to pick up princess Zelda. Or we don’t see him in the Mushroom kingdom or drinking beer with Slippy the toad or Fox Mcloud. Calling that “canon” is about as valid as calling fanfics you read online canon to the story. What a moronic explanation on your end.
PS: Repeating and doubling down on your inaccurate points doesn’t make it correct by default. It just means you’re too stupid to move on from your wrong points. But you do you.
>"She's not controlling time though shes just moving really fast. When you control time you control everything that is around including your opponent. Ergo Controlling time > Some wannabe making themselves faster."
DeleteDo you... just not understand how time manipulation works? Slowing, stopping, accelerating self-time, all of that is a form of time control. And slowing down time is not innately greater than a speed amp, both depend on the potency of either respective effect, ex. slowing down time by 1/3 the speed of the world, but increasing one's speed by 1/2 of the world's speed, means the speed-amper would be faster than the one using a time-slow, since their relative speed is still greater than the time-slow.
>"No she can’t she can only speed herself up but time it’s self remains the same. She can’t resist quicksilver if Quick silver’s whle purpose is to control time and everything around you.
How can dante NOT resist Bayonett’s withc time if all it is is just essentially her being fast? Time Control is controlling time around you and as shown in DMC 3 he controls everything around him in the screen. Again Time Control > Bayonetta making herself fast."
She wouldn't be resisting Quicksilver via Witch Time, she would resist Quicksilver's time slow because she can just resist time slows and stops, as seen against Balder, Strider, and Aesir. Resisting time slows/stops is a separate ability that she has shown to possess. And Dante wouldn't be able to resist Witch Time because it is a speed amp, there isn't anything for him to resist. You can't "resist" someone accelerating their speed to move faster than you. He could theoretically contend with Witch Time's amp by stacking his own amps, but he's not resisting Witch Time in the manner by which someone resists a time-slow.
>"“And if you're attempting to argue that Quicksilver can fucking do anything time related, meaning just turn off Witch Time's self speed amp, then you are actually just wanking.”"
>-"Well if that’s how you feel then you’re an idiot. That's all there is to it. You're an idiot and you don’t know the lore since the DMC 3 lore states that Dante controls time. That’s literally the explanation of quick silver. It’s literal ability is to control time and everything around you. Hence why its able to cancel out bayo's cheap attempt at copying him. In other words that trumps bayo’s wannabe attempts to be dante. So yeah basically you’re just an idiot."
Quicksilver has a very specific, explicit usage, it can't fucking do anything. What, just because Quicksilver is a "time controlling" power means Dante can time-travel now? He can fucking rewind time now? He can put people in time loops? You could use the same inane logic and say because Witch Time is "Temporal Control," (which can be read/interpreted as TIME CONTROL) that Bayonetta can also just control time however she pleases, and just turn off Quicksilver as well.
Quicksilver is the ability to increase his movement speed, and slow down time. He controls time BY SLOWING IT DOWN. It is not an all-encompassing time power that let's Dante do anything time-related. But no, you repeatedly calling me an idiot is very convincing.
Delete>-"Chain chomp isn’t canon though pea brain. That’s what I am trying to say. Chain Chomp, The Master Sword all of these weapons they’re not canon and they’re not part of the bayonetta series. I dunno why you have trouble understanding that. Maybe you have a thought comprehension process but these weapons are not CANON. THAT is why I am saying that using NON CANON WEAPONS in this analysis makes no sense. Yet they didn’t include Dante’s MVC appearance? That’s kinda of suspicious. I brought that up many times before but once again, it goes over your head. Nothing about you surprises me at this point."
Why? Why isn't it canon? Why the fuck can't it be canon? You still are unable to comprehend something being a reference. You're not actually addressing how those items are supported in lore by their descriptions. The game literally says Rodin traveled to Japan and found the Chain Chomp. Just because Bayonetta's world is a little silly doesn't mean it isn't canon.
>-"Maybe you're blind or maybe you're just mentally inept but Did you not read part 1 where they actually mention the master sword as part of Bayonetta’s weapons as well as Chain Chomp? That was literally mentioned in part one you illiterate buffon. Yet according to you it wasn’t used. Even though it was mentioned as part of her weaponry right? Lol. Great logic there buddy. Really. Just Top notch."
Do words, mean nothing to you? Can you re-read what I wrote? What does, "those weapons weren't used in the actual break down of the battle, meaning they weren't used for scaling or feats," mean to you? Yes, they weren't fucking used. They were listed in her equipment, but neither team mentioned them during the ACTUAL DISCUSSION OF THE CHARACTERS FIGHTING.
>-"So it would alter the scale to add those elements yet they some how add in the fact that Bayonetta can use the master sword and use Chain Chomp despite the fact that Bayonetta nor rodin was seen galloping around the mushroom kingdom or Hyrule? So those are canon even though Myiamoto didn’t say jack shit about that and we don’t see Rodin in the other games? I almost feel bad for you but then I remind myself that you only have yourself to blame for your ignorance and stupidity."
The Nintendo stuff doesn't alter the scale at all. For fucks sake. The Master Sword, Nintendo Costumes, Arwing Guns, or Chain Chomp give her 0 new feats or capabilities in any meaningful way. The Master Sword is not the actual Legend of Zelda Master Sword, the Chain Chomp is not the actual Chain Chomp from the Mario games, the Galactic Bounty costume isn't the actual Varia Suit, etc. etc. etc. they don't fucking effect her scaling.
And again, those items can exist in canon and be references to other properties, WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING FROM THAT OTHER PROPERTY. The Chain Chomp isn't the real Mario Chain Chomp, it's just a fucking reference. The Bracelet of Time isn't the actual DMC Bracelet of Time, it's just a fucking reference. The Pillow Talk isn't the actual Okami Pillow Talk, it's just a fucking reference. Queen Butterfly's Kamehameha isn't an actual Dragon Ball Kamehameha, IT'S A FUCKING REFERENCE. Fucking etc. etc. etc. There's tons of references to other media in Bayonetta, but for some reason you're hyperfocused on the Nintendo shit, probably because that's the only ones you recognize as references.
Delete>"If its “bonus material” added in as some kind of gimmick then there is no basis in canon. That’s why we don’t see Rodin in Hyrule trying to pick up princess Zelda. Or we don’t see him in the Mushroom kingdom or drinking beer with Slippy the toad or Fox Mcloud. Calling that “canon” is about as valid as calling fanfics you read online canon to the story. What a moronic explanation on your end."
And the bonus material isn't just some fucking gimmick. You could argue Bayonetta's 1's Nintendo stuff is more "gimmicky," since it can be seen as a form of DLC, but Bayonetta 2's Nintendo stuff is in the base game, and has always been there.
Next thing you're gonna tell me is that the Bracelet of Time in Bayonetta isn't canon either, because you have to beat the game in less than 3 hours to get it, and it's an item originally from DMC, and we didn't see Bayonetta or Rodin chatting it up with Eva or Dante. It's fucking rich that you're calling me a moron, when you literally cannot understand how an item be a reference to another property while still being canon.
Ex. THE CHAIN CHOMP DESCRIPTION: "A curious creature Rodin encountered while travelling through the ancient capital of Japan. Unable to get close to it due to its penchant for biting everything it comes into contact with, Rodin waited until it was sleeping, then dragged it away, chain and all. However, after multiple failed attempts to tame it, Rodin gave up and begged the witches to take it." This isn't some fucking fanfic, you moron; apparently, the Chain Chomp straight up exists in the Bayonetta universe. That text is taken straight from the game itself. If the Chain Chomp looked like some demonic ball you wouldn't even bat an eye, but just because it looks like the Mario Chain Chomp you are twisting yourself in loops creating absurd strawmans, "uhm, asckally where is Mario? haha, where is Zelda lololol?", and somehow denying its canonicity despite being in the game, and having lore which directly supports its possible canonicity.
And regardless, for the millionth fucking time, it DOESNT EVEN MATTER, SINCE THE CHAIN CHOMP, AND ALL HER OTHER NINTENDO SHIT, DOESN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING MEANINGFUL THAT SHE CAN'T ALREADY DO.
And if you're arguing that some of Bayonetta's stuff is a "gimmick" because some of the items are unlocked via non-standard playthroughs, or have certain requirements, then why the fuck are you ignoring Peak of Combat, ya know, the entire game which is based around a fucking gacha weapon system, the most "gimmicky" system imaginable. It is straight up impossible to obtain every single weapon in PoC by playing normally, you have to either grind for 500+ hours to get everything, or just spend actual money. They even included Cavaliere R from DMC5, which is a DLC exclusive post-release weapon, but you don't see me bitching about either of these things, because neither of them fucking effect these characters in any meaningful capacity.
>"PS: Repeating and doubling down on your inaccurate points doesn’t make it correct by default. It just means you’re too stupid to move on from your wrong points. But you do you."
You are genuinely one of the most frustrating people I've had the displeasure of talking to online, and that's saying a lot.
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DeleteDo you not understand how time works? Making yourself fast is NOT slowing down time. She’s not slowing down time. She’s just making herself FASTER than everything around her. That’s not Time Manipulation. That’s just making herself really fast. Time is still moving at normal time but she is just making herself fast. They just call it “witch time” but she’s not actually manipulating time. By the lore she is manipulating herself by going really fast but time is not affected. When you’re controlling the speed AROUND you that’s very different than controlling yourself in the context of these games. Dante’s speed is greater because he is actually CONTROLLING time Vs her who is just making herself really fast. Yes that is different from each other/ Do you not understand how it works? Of course you don’t.
DeleteShe can’t resist time slows or time stops thought. Because again slowing down time is NOT one of her abilities. She is making herself fast. In those fights with Badler, Strider and Aesir she is just making HERSELF fast Vs Dante who is actually changing the fabrics of time with quicksilver. He changes EVERYTHING around when he activates this style. INCLUDING HER. So how can she actually resist time slows and stops when that’s not one of her abilities? She’s part of the scene in that respective case is she not? And he can stop and control time with his quicksilver abilities. No she wouldn’t be able to. That’s not a thing.
Again Witch time is just a speed amp as you said, Dante has shown to move just as fast through his own abilities like trickster which can cause him to teleport in the blink of an eye. So speed amps to him is nothing. But again if Dante is controlling time with his quicksilver and he controls everything around him timewise that includes HER. She can’t resist Quicksilver hence DB’s showing in their video. Please keep up.
Well yeah dude no shit it has a very specific usage I think that goes without saying lol. It stops and slows down time at Dante’s whim. That is shown in the game. What the hell does time traveling have to do with anything? Whoever said Quicksilver can REVERSE time? Do you not know how quicksilver works? And how can she turn off quicksilver when Bayonetta doesn’t control time? You said it yourself it’s a speed amp. Not a time amp. Its just called “witch time” but shes just making herself faster.
And yeah that’s my point. Dante CONTROLS time by stopping it and slowing it down. That is him CONTROLING TIME lol. You’re finally getting it. Good for you. SHE doesn’t slow down time. She just makes herself really fast. DANTE however controls everything around him through the fabrics of time. INCLUDING HER lol.
It’s ironic that you’re being sarcastic yet time and time again you do prove that you’re an idiot lol. Talk about a self defeating argument on your end.
Because Bayonetta isn’t in part of Mario or the Zelda series? Are you really asking me why a one series that has nothing to do with another series can’t be canon with each other when they have no relationship to each other? That’s a pretty big reason why Chain Chomp isn’t canon to the Bayonetta games. That’s not a reference despite your confusions and shortcomings. They actually called it a Chain Chomp and showed it’s a chain chomp. That’s not canon. And again something being IN the game doesn’t make it canon. Like I said before Snake wearing Altiar’s outfit doesn’t make Assassins Creed canon to metal gear solid. Star Wars Characters showing up in Soul Calibur doesn’t make Star Wars and soul calibur canonical to each other. I already addressed by saying this. The game description is irrelevant because it was put in as a joke and a silly gimmick by kayima to commemorate Bayonetta being a switch exclusive. That’s all. It does not mean Canon. It has nothing to do with being silly. Its not canon. Full stop.
DeleteNo matter how many times you wanna gaslight people into thinking that it is. Its not canon.
I don’t care how many times its in the game description. Its not canon. Why? Cause Rodin isn’t in the mario or Zelda games. You’re embarrassing yourself there.
Did you just FORGET that there was a whole first part of this analysis where they actually say that Chain Chomp and the master sword are BAYONETTA’S WEAPONS? That’s using her non canon weapons in the actual analysis of this fictional battle. Lol. What the hell are you talking about? That is exactly what this blog did. This blog in part one took Bayonettas gimmicky non canon weapons in her game and says “hey lets use this in the analysis” yet some how Dante’s cameo appearances in SMT or Mvc doesn’t make the cut. Why? Oh yeah that would tip the scale in his favor. Can’t have that now can we? Lol. Its literally in the first part of the post as part of the ANALSYS! lol
It still uses NON CANON items that aren’t part of bayonetta’s series as a method to tip the scale in Bayonetta’s favor. You’re still using the Master Sword as part of this analysis as some kind of unfair advantage to bayonetta along with chain chomp which is NOT part of her game to tip the scale in her favor.
That’s an OBVIOUIS attempt as to why they did that otherwise they wouldn’t have even used it while conveniently ignoring Dante’s outer game appearances that also include game descriptions and multiple references along with statements. But again lets not include that since it would tip it right back in dante’s favor. You’re a clown bro lol.
No it can’t boo boo the fool lol. Other titles in other properties can’t exist in each others games unless it shares the same world. And bayonetta and Mario bros DON’T share the same world and they’re certainly not in canon with each other.
Because we don’t see Rodin interact with characters from Zelda! It took you THAT long to get with the program right? Golly gee the last horse finally crossed the finishing like. Same with DMC’s bracelet of time (that can’t be accessed through the main storyline or its initial gameplay) Same with Pillow Talk (that has no canonical impact on the story nor was it seen IN the story and can only be accessed by ridiculous means like completing the game on hard mode) and same with Queen Butterfly’s diet coke discount of trying to cosplay as Goku. I don’t care if it’s a reference. Its not canon.
Bayonetta doesn’t share a world with okami or mushroom kingdom and she isn’t gokus mom. And BTW that wasn’t actually a Kamahmaya FYI she just mimicked the motions
I don’t care if they’re references or cheap gimmicks. They’re not canon. That’s my issue using NON CANON WEAPONS to her advantage but not applying that same favor to your other opponent and making this a handicap match. You finally caught on. Good job,
And just like that you let me down again with your unbridled display of stupidity and ignorance lol. You’re killing me bluey. Lol.
DeleteThat’s exactly what a cheap and dumb gimmick is you imbecile. It’s a gimmick that was included IN the game after bayonetta became a switch exclusive. And if it has always been in the lore of Bayonetta then we would’ve seen Rodin or Bayonetta in other titles like Star Fox or the Metroid games. Do we see that? No of course not because it is NOT CANON TO BAYONETTA lol. I don’t think you know what canonicty is given how your answers sounds like you’re new to the concept of story telling and canonical and chronological order.
Exactly! Lol Good you’re finally getting it. It’s about time you’re catching on. Do we see Dante chatting it up with Bayonetta or Rodin in his own game to show canonicity? No we don’t. Do we have confirmation from Kayima saying that Dante has crossed Paths with Rodin? Not unless you’re delusional and given your current state of mind it would surprise that you conjured that up in your fractured imagination but you’re finally catching on. It’s not Canon. You don’t acquire that item in the storyline of the game, you don’t see Dante or anyone from DMC crossing over with Bayonetta in her game or vice versa. Just like you don’t see Rodin Battling Emperor Andross in the Lylat system. Because those weapons are NOT canon. It’s amazing how you can debunk your own argument while also trying to support lol. That’s some impressive display of ignorance on your end.
How can a game item from another property BE canon to a completely different game that has NOTHING to do with that game series? Exactly it doesn’t. Cause it is NOT canon. Otherwise you’d see other characters FROM that game crossover to that title. Common sense isn’t that hard so I dunno what your excuse is for your display of constant stupidity.
Ok so if it “straight up exists” in the bayonetta universe then how come we don’t see Rodin in Mario 64 or the other mario games capturing a chain chomp? Because it doesn’t actually exist. In fact you don’t even GET it through the main storyline. You either get it after you complete the game on hard mode or use an amibo or the halos. It’s not introduced in the game’s actual story. It’s not shown IN the main chapters of the game. That’s exactly what I called it. Some gimmick. And it doesn’t help that Kayima even treats his games like fanfic quality writing. No wonder he got terminated from Platinum games.
I don’t care if it is dude. It still doesn’t make it canon no matter how many texts Kayima wants to put in to go along with his cheap and stupid gimmick. Unless you see Rodin in Mario Bros three or Jeanne putting the moves on Link or something like that then it’s not canon. It’s an Obvious gimmick included in his title to commemorate a switch exclusive . It’s not canon no matter how many times you try to gaslight people into thinking that it is.
And that’s not how strawman works by the way. I am the one bringing up the issue of using NON CANON weapons for one character, bayonetta yet not including Dante’s cameo appearances in other games as part of HIS analysis. That is an issue that I brought up that is present in this botched analysis which I’ve explained already.
It doesn’t just LOOK like mario’s chain chomp. It is Mario’s chain chomp. They even called it that. And as you mocked but also brought up Rodin isn’t any of the mario games if it was canon then you’d think we’d see him cross over in Breath of the wild right? Hmm that didn’t happen I wonder why. Oh yeah it’s not canon. Also despite your misgivings and your attempt to hold onto misinformation, Some gimmick being IN a game doesn’t mean it’s actually Canon. Snake Gets Altair’s outfit in metal Gear Solid 4. That doesn’t mean Assasin’s creed is part of the metal gear solid series. Cause it’s not. MGS wasn’t referenced once in any of the AC games. Shovel Knight is seen in Blasphemous in a painting but that doesn’t mean Shovel Knight is Canon in the Land of Cystodia. Chain Chomp and The Master Sword are in Bayoetta two AS A GIMMICK, doesn't mean its still canon especially since its no where in the game's actual story it's self.
DeleteSomething appearing in a game as a cheap gimmick is NOT canoncity. It’s a gimmick. Nothing more. But if it was canon as your desperate attempts to retcon tries to imply, then why not keep the theme going in Bayonetta three? Oh...cause it's not canon. Gasp!
I dunno why people think typing in all caps somehow makes their point relevant. You’ve repeated the same irrelevant point multiple times. It’s still not a valid point. You’re right it doesn’t matter since it’s not canon to her series. So why include this in her analysis if not to just give her some kind of unfair advantage? A little critical thinking goes a long way. Also I don’t recall bayonetta being able to travel to Hyrule or any other property title in her own game. I think you’re confusing this with Wreck it Ralph. But you obviously get confused a lot.
Devil May Cry Peak of Combat is an actual game. I brought that up as well in a past statement. Why would I ignore Peak of Combat when it’s an actual game? Maybe not a very good game since most of these mobile games aren’t very good but it’s still a game within the franchise none the less. How is that a gimmick? It’s an actual game put out by capcom with even Itusno himself being part of it’s development. Did you not go to school or something? Your lack of common sense is astounding. Yeah its not a very good game and obtaining some of their items is pretty ridiculous but it’s an actual game that Capcom some how placed in canonicity with the DMC titles. Why would I bring up a game that is part of the franchise? What kind of argument is that? It’s really weird how most of your argument consists of you just getting angry and making a lot of fallacious non sequitar points.
And my responses frustrate you then that’s your business and that’s your problem. I’ve explained my points thoroughly and why Chain Chomp from mario bros is NOT a canon game despite your delusional thinking. If common sense and basic logic frustrates you then that’s on you and your inability to improve yourself.
All in all dude this is just a very weird attempt on your end. But there's only so much you can gatekeep girl boss and gaslight your way out of. Sorry but your points still aren't valid no matter how many tantrums you throw.
And I meant to say Queen Butterfly isn't gokus mom despite her attempts to rip off his movements. My bad
DeletePS: If my responses frustrates you then don't make stupid and ignorant points that I have to debunk. Or at least educate yourself on the topic at hand. This is your problem. Not mine.
DeleteI see my comparison about relative speed just went over your head. And it's really funny that you're one to keep saying that I don't what I'm talking or I that I haven't played these games when you're just outright ignorant on what occurs during the Balder, Strider and Aesir boss fights. What does, Balder, Strider, Aesir having the ability to slow and stop time, mean to you? And what does Bayonetta breaking out of these without Witch Time, mean to you?
DeleteAnd now you do admit that Witch Time is a speed amp? Despite your constant prior attempts at saying it's a fucking time slow? For fucks sake. I'm starting to think you are actually just a dedicated troll.
Honestly, yeah, like I said earlier, it's pretty obvious you are either just reading past my points, and/or genuinely have reading comprehension issues, so there's no use arguing further. You do literally have no idea what you're talking, even going as far to claim Queen Butterfly's Kamehameha move isn't canon, despite literally doing it in a fucking cutscene against the final boss in Bayonetta 3. It's actually incredible how you are unable to comprehend the idea of a reference or homage being canon, without those two series actually being a part of each other.
I just wonder if anyone else will stumble upon this blog and read this mess. But have fun stalking this blog for another 5 months and having meltdowns after every time someone comments.
DeleteI mean your comparison makes no sense is what I am saying. You’re comparing the ability to control time and the surroundings around you to Going really fast as what bayonetta is doing. But again that’s just you being ignorant and clueless on the topic at hand. You said it yourself it’s a speed amp. They speed themselves up. In fact since you’re going by the words of Kayima he even said that himself. Balder, Strider, Aeisr aren’t actually affecting time. They’re just affecting their speed.
So you’re right about that. It is kind of funny that you act like you’re an expert on this series even though the creator of the bayonetta games is telling what “witch time” really is. A speed amp. I really like how you say I flip flop back and forth yet you can’t even remain consistent on what points you are trying to make lol. Witch time is not TIME CONTROL. She can’t affect time. She just makes her self fast. Just like Balder and Aeisr and ECT.
See how you flip flop back and forth? First you are saying Witch time affects “self time” now you’re saying its relative and that she can control time. So which bull shit nonsense do you wanna go with? Cause if we’re going by kayima then he is saying that It’s not time control. Shes just making herself really fast. So which one is it? Use the remaining cogs that’s somewhat functioning in your brain and choose which hill you wanna die on dude. At least be consistent
But I will agree that you shouldn’t go any further because it’s obvious that you haven’t played any of the titles nor are you aware of how witch time works since you think time control is a thing even though Kayima is out right telling you that you’re a clueless moron that doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
I’ll admit though watching you struggle to try to make non canon BS canon is kind of funny. Like how you’re trying to tie Dragon Ball Z into Bayonetta when there isn’t even a Kamehameha move IN the actual game lol. That wasn’t a Kamehameha move btw. She didn’t even say the words. But I guess according some how Akira Toriyama was in contact with kayima and made it canon right? Lol ok
You’re really weird dude. And I don’t mean that as an attack but your idea of what you think is “canon” is not correct yet you continue to double down on points that I’ve already debunked. Chain Chomp is not part of bayonetta lore. You don’t see anyone from Bayonetta in the mario games. Not canon. The Master Sword is not part of Bayonetta lore. You don’t see Rodin starting fights with Link or anything like that. Despite the fact that they are in the game they are not Canon. Having NON CANON items in a game has been a thing. Otherwise Snake would’ve been seen in Assassins creed since he was wearing Altair’s robe. But that’s not the case since that’s not a thing. You don’t see Liu Kang in God Of War even though Kartos made a cameo In one of the mortal Kombat games. Cause again that’s not canon to Mortal Kombat or God Of War. Something IN the game isn’t necessarily canon espically if its just a gimmick. Stop the Cap dude it’s embarrassing.
But hey if you wanna lie to yourself I won’t stop you. Feel free to contradict yourself multiple times and act like you’re unbothered despite your obvious passive aggressive responses and tantrums you throw. I won’t judge you for your ignorance and emotional instability.
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DeleteFYI this is what Kayima said about witch time.
Delete" Both Witch Time and Lightspeed are things that speed up the person themselves, rather than manipulating time... "
XD!
Wow, that was gonna be my last comment but you've really astounded me, that was the fucking point you moron, I was saying that Witch Time was a regular speed amp from the fucking beginning, YOU WERE THE ONE saying it was a fucking time slow nearly this entire fucking discussion. I have been playing devil's advocate at times to address your points when you claimed Witch Time was a time slow, but I have remained consistent on my points from the fucking beginning. You'd realize this if you weren't a fucking moron.
DeleteThe idea of relative speed depending on the potency of the amp and time-slow still applies.
And Balder, Strider, and Aesir have SEPERATE time slow and stop spell abilities (meaning not Lightspeed, or Witch Time). You'd realize this if you played the games. Just as Balder, Aeisr, and Bayonetta all possess the ability to time travel, these characters do have time-related powers, that aren't Witch Time or Light Speed.
And no one is trying to make DBZ canon into Bayonetta, it's a fucking reference. And Queen Butterfly does actually say the words if you listen closely. And you are so close to understanding cross-over and reference items, it depends on the property, but for example, God of War is canon in Shovel Knight (which is literally a canon cross-universe event). Akuma is canon is Tekken (which is an example of Akuma from Tekken not being the same Akuma from Street Fighter). Vader isn't canon in Soul Calibur. Geralt is canon is Soul Calibur (another example of a Geralt from SC not being the same Geralt from the Witcher). Queen Butterfly's Kamehameha is canon in Bayonetta (meaning it isn't the same Kamehameha from DBZ). The Phantom is canon in Bayonetta (meaning it isn't the same Phantom from DMC).
Items, creatures, characters, abilities can exist as a homage (or "cross-over"), while still being canon. We don't need to see Bayonetta chatting up with Dante to know that the Phantom is still canon in her universe, because, it is, just, a reference; and the Phantom clearly does just exist in her universe.
What, does half of the Bayonetta universe no longer exist now because the game is built on references? Can Rodin not actually have a Raging Demon attack because that's actually originally from Street Fighter? Is the Cruel Altea not canon because it resembles the Voltron heads and allows Bayonetta to transform into a lion demon? Does Antonio Redgrave not exist in the Bayonetta universe because that name first came from DMC? Is Jeanne's Cutie J transformation non-canon because the costume and Bloody Moon weapon are paying heavy homage to Cutie Honey? Can Bayonetta not actually preform an afterburner kick because it is a purchasable move named after the video game AfterBurner? (Do none of Dante's fist weapon purchasable move-sets exist because the heavily reference Street Fighter moves?) Is Madama Butterfly not real because she's just a reference to Madame Butterfly? Do none of the angels actually exist in canon since the entire basis of them is based upon and referencing Christian theology? (I'm exaggerating a point here; clarifying on my intention, since this may go over your head)
And regardless, to repeat, fucking countless times, even if you consider those Nintendo items "soft-canon," her having those items don't affect Bayonetta is any meaningful way, it doesn't change the outcome of the fight.
And for fucks sake, I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm being aggressive. You're the one who start hurling direct insults. But I know that I really can't expect much from you, considering that you've been feverishly rambling on this blog, to repeat, for 5 MONTHS, and still somehow misread the blog itself, thinking that they said Bayonetta won.
We both know that wasn't going to be your last comment lol. YOu just like to argue for the sake of arguing rather than actually speaking facts. You just want the last word in. WHich again is funny cause you try to play the high road card yet you keep devolving into this self contradicting mess of yours. But ok sure. I guess this is you REAL last comment right? lol ok whatever you say.
DeleteI was gonna say the same about you to be honest. Your inability to remain consistent and actually stick to the facts is pretty astounding. That and your own inability to recognize when you flip flop? If I didn’t think you were a moron before (I always knew to be honest) I certainly have confirmation now that you’re a brainless idiot. That was you. YOU were the one who was saying to me that “Bayonetta can control time since shes controlling self time! Hur hur hur” You LITERALLY Just said that no longer than a FEW posts ago. I even TOLD you and showed you that Kayima confirmed that Bayonetta doesn’t CONTROL time she just makes herself fast. But then you respond with your typical brainless buffoonery about how self time is a thing and she manipulates the time around her. Again that’s about as idiotic as it gets given that you obviously don’t have a functional brain but that what I expect from you.
And now were’ back to you saying that she’s manipulating time again. Way to remain consistently inconsistent. But nothing about your mental shortcomings surprises me anymore. Again there is no time slow in bayonetta since Kayima is telling you that the concept of “time” in his game is affecting the character’s speed and senses. Straight from the horses mouth.
No fool they do not. Balder, Strider and Aeisr do NOT have the ability to slow time down and stop spell abilities. They have the ability to affect themselves and their innate abilities. THAT is what they are doing when they match bayonetta or she matches them. She is matching their speed by affecting HER speed. Once again from Kayima himself . They’re manipulating themselves rather than Manipulating time. Tell me you don’t play the games without telling me you don’t play the games
Well duh lol no shit sherlock. That’s what I wasy saying to you. But because you got worms for brains you obviously didn’t get that. That was NOT a kamahamha that Queen butterfly did. THAT was a reference. Putting a chain chomp in the game is NOT a reference. It’s just some non canon joke that kayima added it cause Bayonetta became a switch. That doesn’t mean it’s canon. You bringing up the NOT kamahama doesn’t prove your point because THAT was not a kamaham. However using a Chain Chomp however is taking something directly from another property and adding it into the game as a joke. Because it is NOT canon to the bayonetta universe. You don’t see Rodin in Super Mario World nor do you see Jeanne in Hyrule. Why? Because they are NOT CANON lol. Something being IN the game as a joke or some exclusive gimmick does not mean it’s canon. Snake is NOT canon to assassins Creed.
And God of war is NOT canon in shovel knight because guess what? He doesn’t appear in the other ports of shovel knight. It’s only a playstation exclusive and its NOT canon to shovel knight at all. If it was then we would’ve seen Kratos in the other ports as well. That’s just again some exclusive incentive to buy the playstation version of the game. That’s all it is. It doesn’t mean God Of War is canon in shovel knight. If that was the case we would see Shovel Knight in GOW. We don’t so again spare me your lack of understanding when it comes to Canon. Oh and Akuma isn’t canon to Tekken anymore given how poorly his appearance in Tekken 7 was. So there goes that theory.
You have to be brain dead because this is the only way I can explain how stupid you sound. How is Vader not canon to soul calibur but some how in your idiocy ridden mind Geralt from the Witcher is? Neither of them are canon to soul calbur’s lore. They’re just guest characters that don’t really impact the story as a whole. Otherwise again we’d see Mitsirugi on the death star battling storm troopers or Sophitia fighting the Unseen Elder. They don’t even impact the story since it doesn’t even include them in anyways. No you half witted invalid Geralt is NOT canon to soul claibur in any shape or form and your logic for determining canon is about as moronic as you thinking Rodin is part of the Mario and Zelda storyline even though he had piss all to do with either of those titles.
DeleteNo they can’t at least NOT the ones that I brought up which are obviously non canon. Concerning yours though Ragin Demon is NOT the Ragin Demon from Street fighter than Rodin uses. And Cruel Aleta is NOT the five lions in Voltron just because it looks like them. Yeah they have references TO them but it’s NOT the actual Raging Demon or the five lions from Voltron. Those are actual canonical items and moves IN the game. They aren’t NON CANON items like The Chain Chomp which is an obvious non canon item since its taken straight out of the mario franchise. Just like the Master Sword is. Yet some how this analysis feels its ok to include even though it has ass to do with Bayonetta since they’re non canon items.
Hell you don’t even obtain them in the initial storyline or play through. Same with Rodin’s battles which are also Non canon since they’re completely optional.
Rodin isn’t canon to street fighter. His move isn’t raging demon from street fighter. So your explanation is stupid. This is a move that is Rodin that happens to be called Raging Demon. No Akuma and street fighter have nothing to do with Bayonetta since they’re not in the games. Especially in a non canon optional battle. What a foolish thing to say.
Cruel Altea is Not the five lions from Voltron. I didn’t saying paying Homage is non canon. I said NON canon items like Chain Chomp and The Master Sword has NOTHING to do with bayonetta have no place in this analysis since again they’re not canonical weapons IN The game. If it was then we’d see Bayonetta characters in
No shit Antonio redgrave is a character and an obvious reference to DMC. But that’s a totally different character that has nothing to do with DMC other than just his name reference. Im not talking about that. Im talking about the weapons that were added in the game just for the sake of scoring a Nintendo exclusive. But if they’re canon according to you logic then you show me right now where Rodin is in A link to the past. Or where his appearance is in Super Mario Galaxy. I must have missed that in my copy of the game. Or maybe that’s just head canon that you made/
Does Cutie J have any canonical link to Cutie Honey? No of course not. What kind of idiotic logic is that? You don’t see Jeanne being in that anime. What kind of logic is that? In fact her transformation doesn’t even resemble anything IN that anime. Im not talking about references without mentioning them.
I was pretty specific in talking about the Chain Chomp, The Master sword that this BLOG used as part of their analysis which they even credited as “from the mario games” That has NOTHING to do with bayonetta since its obviously non canon. Yet for some reason this was added as part of her analysis along with The Arwing Guns, along with Samus’s armor for some reason. Yet they didn’t use Dante’s story in the Marvel Vs Capcom game which is kinda sus. I’ve been pretty clear about this but again. It’s an r/woosh moment for you lol
Does Bayonetta actually appear in Afterburner? No she doesn’t and its called a Afterburner KICK not Bayonetta being in the afterburner.
But anyways I digress because you obviously don’t understand the differences between references and NON CANON ITEMS. Like Chain Chomp and The Master Sword. Two OBVIOUS non canon items that has nothing to do with bayonetta since you don’t see Rodin in any of the games. What I am getting at, and again this goes over your head because you have the thought process of a rotting carrot, the master Sword and the Chain Chomp are not CANON to Bayonetta. Because guess what? They have NOTHING to do with Bayonetta other than a cheap little joke added in to celebrate being a Nintendo exclusive. But hey apparently your head canon things that they’re in the same game so show me where Rodin shows up in Mario 64 or Jeanne some how makes a cameo in star fox. Maybe you are confusing your hacked Rom with actual game lore. Go on. I’ll wait.
DeleteAgain its not “soft canon” its not canon. Just like Akuma is not canon to Tekken anymore. Just like Spawn and The Joker aren’t canon to Mortal Kombat. JUST like Chain Chomp and The Master Sword are NOT canon to bayonetta. Yet for some reason it’s part of this wacky wacky analysis. What a world right? Lol
DeleteThat’s why I said you WERE being passive aggressive because you were. Now you’re just being a bratty tantrum thrower because I refuse to entertain your moronic idea that Bayonetta and Mario and Zelda share the same universe. So yeah you’re being aggressive. But you’re also being moronic as well. Which is kind of funny you accuse me of taking it to the personal leve when your response to me was just dripping with ad hominem. Again this is weird considering you have no self observational skills.
Also it’s really ironic that you categorizine my behavior as “feaverish” when I brought up a flaw in this analysis yet here you are having this weird PTSD meltdown here. In a 5 month old blog that you commented on. You don’t find that a bit contradicting on your end? Oh wait sorry. I forgot that you have worms for brains. You don’t even know what contradicting means.
Im sorry Bluey. I gave you too much credit with that one. It won’t happen again 😊
Ok, I guess we also don't understand the concept of playing "devil's advocate" to try and breakdown the opponents points, or playing with their argument for the sake of the debate. I guess we are also ignoring how you said:
Delete>"They were spot on about Bayonetta’s ability witch time which they said she can only stop time. That’s mentioned multiple times in the lore but again this seems to have went over your head,"
>"The lore talks about how witch time gives the player the ability to slow time down. That was actually IN the game. Which I don’t believe you actually played given the response of this. I don’t think you’re the right person to consult when it comes to these titles since im seeing a lot of evidence that you didn’t play these titles in question."
>"So when Bayonetta is just speeding herself up THAT is her SLOWING DOWN time."
Amazing, amazing, how you say "I don't know what I'm talking about," or "I don't even play these games," when we can literally just look back at the conversation, and actually see, that *you* were the one who was arguing that Witch Time was time-manipulation, and is in fact, the one who actually had no idea what they were talking about. Amazing.
And I guess we are also ignoring how Aesir and Balder have blatant time spells that are not Witch Time or Light Speed. Balder literally throws out a circular tube-like spell that only freezes Bayonetta in place, which doesn't effect himself. Aesir's entire power-set is about time-related abilities, and he uses a spell-sigil to freeze Bayonetta and the environment around him.
And you're really lost on your points on cross-over events. God of War is explicitly canon to Shovel Knight, the creators of both God of War and Shovel have both repeatedly confirmed that it is a canon cross-over event. And you're also claiming that Tekken Akuma isn't canon either, despite, litearlly being canon? Lol?
And Vader isn't canon to Soul Calibur because the SC devs said he wasn't. Geralt is canon to Soul Calibur because the SC devs said he was. Wow, what a simple concept to understand!
Also, Rodin's battles are considered canon by Kamiya.
And you are so close to understanding it! Yes, Antonio Redgrave is a reference to DMC, but is a separate character! Meaning he's not actually from DMC, and that's why we don't see Bayonetta chatting it up with Dante or roaming the streets of Fortuna! The Chain Chomp, likewise, is a reference to Mario, but is a separate Chain Chomp! Meaning, it's not actually from Mario, and that's why we don't see Rodin going on adventures with Mario, or prancing around in Bowser's Kingdom! Yay, you're so close!
Remember, they don't have to share the same universe! They can just be references!
And there is a bit of a huge difference between finding this blog after it was initially posted and leaving a short comment, vs leaving multiple comments over the span of 5 months! But, haha, I guess this is also difficult for you to understand!
I'm sorry "BlueSmurfCat's Therapist" (Formerly known as, "LastActionHero"). I gave you too much credit with that one. It won’t happen again 😊
Sounds like you’re projecting your own ignorance and stupidity here because you were the one that said Bayonetta was controlling “Self time” which is not a thing. You tried to argue that Bayonetta could control “self time” and that was still a form of time control
DeleteWhen I even said that I misquoted DB and that they never made that claim. So I guess yeah that was on me since I did wrong by Death battle and misquoted them. I owe them an apology for that.
But Good. Im glad we both know that bayonetta can’t do shit when it comes to time control. We’re on the same page as that. That’s a good thing. Im glad we at least agree that shes useless and shes not immune to time control since no one in the game has that ability. Took you long enough lol
Yet according to your attempts to retcon this game, somehow she has this non existing immunity to resit time control even though its NOT a thing in the game as you keep trying to bring up and pretedn you know more than kayima does.
I actually find that pretty amazing that you are trying to retcon Kayima’s own universe. I mean don’t me wrong that makes you look brain dead and inept in many shape and forms but I gotta give you credit on trying. It takes a lot of nerve to be this pathetic to try and act like you know more about a game than the actual creator does. Especially when you bring up things like self time which is bull shit. But again that’s because you don’t play these games and you make up spells and abilities that they don’t have
Like this idea that Aesir and Balder supposedly have these time spells despite the fact that the creator once again is saying all perceived time manipulations either self manipulation or manipu;ating the other person to move slower. Again taken straight from the creators mouth so according to Kayima Aesir and Balder don’t have blatant time spells that affect time. Just the other people. But again you know more about bayonetta than Kayima does right? Ok Keep telling yourself that
Ah see there you go again Bluey just when I thought you were getting somewhere you once again show everyone that you seem to have been raised on a steady diet of chemical paint chips. Why you gotta disappoint me like this blue brains? So God of War is not explicitly canon to Shovel Knight. That is NOT a thing. You can’t be canon to one universe while NOT sharing another one. That’s not a thing. If God of War is canon to Shovel knight then by default Shovel Knight has to be canon to god of War. They are not. And NO God of war was never confirmed to be a canon crossover. It was only Confirmed to be a ps4 eclusive cameo. Since again Kratos isn’t on the switch or the Xbox ports. And yes finally! You’re getting it! Akuma isn’t canon to Tekken since his appearance was nothing more than just a guest crossover. He had a storyline but he’s not canon to the whole story of tekken. Why do you think they confirmed that they wrote him out of Tekken seven especially when Tekken characters weren’t in any of the street fighter games? Uh ok Common sense. Your only weakness! Quick run for the hills Bluey!
Lmfao what? No that’s not a thing. When did Sapkowski confirm that Geralt was canon to soul calibur? He never made that kind of statement. Geralt didn’t impact the storyline of the game. He’s a guest character just like everyone else in the game. Unless they share the same universe, they don’t. its not canon. That’s not hard to understand but Im speaking to some moron who thinks Bayonetta is a dragon ball z character lol
DeleteAlso Im gonna dispute his statements on that since the battle for Rodin are completely optional.
Ah ok so the problem here is that you think I said references means Not canon. That’s not what I said. You just imagined that because you probably want something to argue against but I didn’t say references are NOT canon. I said that NON CANON ITEMS are not canon to bayonetta since Bayonetta and Link don’t share the same Universe. A character name Antion Redgrave as a reference to DMC is not the same as pulling chain chomp out of the Marioverse as a non canon item and putting in your game as they don’t share the same canon. No they are NOT the same because Kayima took the Chain Chomp FROM mario booth looks and mannerisms and NAME and put it in his game. Just like he took the master sword and called it BY NAME and put it in his game. So its not a reference. It’s a non canon item that Kayima put in his game for scoring his exclusive deal. You know why its not canon? Because like I said they do NOT share the same universe. You almost had it there but then again you had to remind me that you have swiss chese for brains lol
Why do you disappoint everyone in life Bluey? Are you just intent on being a world class buffoon talking about topics you know nothing about? That’s just sad man. But I suppose that’s just you.
Also threres no real difference other than the fact that you decided to vent your unresolved frustation issues on a 5 month old blog and I just gave you a short respons correcting you that caused you to become unhinged. But again that's just you being you. Such is life right? :)
Oh and Im glad you caught my name change lol. I knew that would some how grab your attention. I gotta entertain myself somehow since we both know that you have the conservational skills of a turnip XD
PS: Since we now both agree that Bayonetta can't do diddly squat when it comes to time control that would mean that she has no ways of actually RESISTING time controlling since no one in the game actually HAS that ability. So that means by that logic she has absolutely NO defense against quick Silver , which makes sense as to WHY withc time can be canceled out since its actually AFFECTING TIME and the SETTING which she's a part of. I guess it would be too much of you to finally accept that "in game doesn't mean always canon" though especially since Geralt and Soul Calibur don't share the same universe since CD projekt Red and Sapkowski basically said “I don’t fuck with that Namco bull shit” when it comes to canonicty to their own titles.
DeleteUh huh, uh huh, uh, huh... Ok. Lets, break it down. You were the one who initially kept claiming that Bayonetta's Witch Time was a time-slow/stop multiple times ("misquoting" multiple times(?)), and then when I corrected you by stating it was a speed amp, you STILL said it was a time slow ("So when Bayonetta is just speeding herself up THAT is her SLOWING DOWN time.) And then, only later, did you decide to change your opinion, but still incorrectly said Witch Time was "manipulating YOU around time", and "I misquoted DB because DB never said that she could stop time. Just alter herself around it" (ALTER HERSELF AROUND TIME-AKA-YOU'RE STILL SAYING ITS A FORM OF TIME-MANIPULATION).
DeleteBoth of that reads as you stating Witch Time is still time-manipulation, but as a form of self-time acceleration; so I ran with that interpretation, since it seemed like it was the only common ground we could find, but now you're acting all high and mighty like you even knew what you were talking about in the first place, and were correct all along, despite adamantly claiming that Witch Time was a time slow, and disagreeing with me when I said Witch Time was a speed-amp.
Like, you have to be trolling, you have to be. There's is no way you're pretending that you've were always right, when again, a direct quote from you, was:
>""The lore talks about how witch time gives the player the ability to slow time down. That was actually IN the game. Which I don’t believe you actually played given the response of this. I don’t think you’re the right person to consult when it comes to these titles since im seeing a lot of evidence that you didn’t play these titles in question."
??????????????
And this is not me attempting to know more than what Kamiya does, Witch Time and Light Speed are explicit speed amps. Aesir, and Balder (and possibly Strider), have other abilities that are NOT Witch Time or Light Speed, which allow them to control time. They occur during their boss fights. They throw Bayonetta in a time-lock spell, and then she is able to break out of them, while not using Witch Time. She can't "break out" of instances of Balder or Aesir using Light Speed or Witch Time, because there is nothing for her to break out of, you can't "break out" of someone amping themselves to move faster than you. Also, Balder very clearly, is using a unique spell for his time-lock tube, that is not Light Speed. Again, you would realize this, and not even be arguing about this, if you played the fucking games.
And Kamiya wasn't saying all perceived time manipulations were speed amps, he was literally just answering a question on what Light Speed and Witch Time were.
And for god's sake, look it up. Those characters are canon. The creators outright say, yes those are guest characters are indeed canon to those certain universes.
Like, I genuinely hope you are trolling. I really fucking hope you are. Because, if not, I feel bad for you. You are actually an idiot. And it's actually fucking depressing that you don't realize how ridiculous you sound right now, but calling each other stupid is clearly getting us no where.
Still trying to use these gaslighting attempts right? Too bad it's pretty much useless. Sorry to say but you're incorrect again but you being wrong and making bad faith statements is just your nature at this point. I can't expect a dog to act civil so i have to curb my expectations with you. It's fine. I said I misquoted DB about Witch time slowing down time which I did. They didn’t say that and she doesn’t have that ability. Then YOU said that it was only a speed amp but at the same time you also said that she had the ability to alter “self time” that’s not a thing. There’s no self time in bayonetta and no one has that ability to control time. I even said. Now I did say that witch time is manipulating YOU around time which is true cause that’s what a speed amp is but then you doubled down and said that she’s doing this self time alteration which again makes no sense.
DeleteAltering herself AROUND time is not the same as altering “Self time” or whatever that is but whatever it is that you double down on. A speed amp is manipulating herself since she is giving herself the ability to change her speed. You call it “Uh ok imma run with it huh huh huh” but I call it what it actually is. Just you doubling down on a point that’s not really a point and just choosing top die on this hill. Witch time has always been a self manipulation or speed amp since it’s the same dif not this “self time” nonsense that you tried to spin and you’re trying to argue your way out of.
Right and like I said I misquoted DB and said she doesn’t have the ability to slow down time. Which she doesn’t. So by that logic she can’t resist time warp because no one in that game actually alters time. That’s not a thing. You want it to be a thing because it fits your narrative but its not a thing.
No that is exactly what you are doing. You are attempting this know it all nonsense and acting like you know more than Kayima when he was SPECIFIC about how “time control” works in Bayonetta and everyone IN bayonetta when he says that time mainpilation is really just manipulating ones self and NOT time. That applies to her and the boss fights. They don’t throw bayonetta in a “time lock spell” according to Kayima they cast a spell on her that affects HER and HER speed when she is not in withc time. And affecting THEM. Not time it’s self it is affecting the Person in question. That is shown and confirmed IN the game when Kayima made it clear that time manipulation doesn’t work in the sense that it manipulates time. It manipulates the individual by doing it to yourself or doing it to that person you’re fighting.
That’s IN the game and Kayima confirmed multiple times despite your attempts to pass of your fanfic as canonical order. Im sorry but your ao3 fanfic is not canon
No they do NOT lol. CD Projekt never said that Geralt was canon to the Soul Calibur universe. Just because the devs for Soul Calibur decided to speak for CD red doesn’t mean they say it. No the creators of The Witcher especially Andrzej Sapkowski never said “Oh Kilik and Maxi? Yeah they were in the back drop. You didn’t see them” That is head canon. They don’t share the same universe they are not canon.
But again you seem to have this weird concept of what Canon is because you have worms for brains and your cognitive thought process is equivalent to that Limburg cheese. So again it is what it is. Honestly though I do pitty you. Going through life as clueless as and as stupid as you are is no way to live. I really do feel sorry for you because you truly are brain dead.
And that’s not me being mean. I’m being truthful. I’m sorry you are the way you are. You have my condolences.
And if you don't like being called stupid then you should probably work on some self improvement on your end. But that would require actual EFFORT on your part. And there is obviously some level disconnect when it comes to that. Oh well.
DeleteRight, I'm attempting to gaslight you, when we can literally just scroll up and see what was written. And it's very odd that you misquoted DB multiple times, and kept using the interpretation that Witch Time was a time slow continuously for the basis for your arguments, but ah, yes, sure, you kept misquoting DB repeatedly. And even when you weren't quoting DB, that too was a mistake, "The lore talks about how witch time gives the player the ability to slow time down. That was actually IN the game," or "So when Bayonetta is just speeding herself up THAT is her SLOWING DOWN time."
DeleteAnd Witch Time and Light Speed are self-amps, not abilities that they can put on others. Kamiya was specifically talking about Witch Time and Light Speed when he said they weren't time-manipulation powers, not those other gameplay abilities; you're erroneously assuming that those freeze-type spells are examples of speed control when there's no indication that they are--especially when we know that Witch Time and Light Speed cannot alter the speed of others (only the user), and we already know that time-powers do exist in the Bayonetta universe, such as with Bayonetta's, Balder's, and Aesir's time-travel and time-portal abilities.
And I really should stop, but you make it hard to; Geralt is canon to SC, the Geralt that shows up in SC is canon to SC, but not canon to the "main" Witcher universe. They are different Geralts. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp. What CD Project Red or Sapkowski say or don't say doesn't even matter, because the SC devs consider Geralt canon to the SC universe, and once more, THEY ARE DIFFERENT GERALTS.
Sapkowski doesn't even consider CD Project Red's games to be canon to his Witcher universe, but you seem to have great difficulty grasping the fact that the "same" character can exist in different continuities.
And honestly, yeah, you're right. I am stupid. I'm stupid for thinking this was a valuable discussion to have, stupid for thinking it was worthwhile to try and find common ground, and stupid for just engaging with you for this long when your intentions were clear from the start.
>inb4 "haha glad you admit you're stupid"
Also,
>"You have worms for brains and your cognitive thought process is equivalent to that Limburg cheese. So again it is what it is. Honestly though I do pitty you. Going through life as clueless as and as stupid as you are is no way to live. I really do feel sorry for you because you truly are brain dead. And if you don't like being called stupid then you should probably work on some self improvement on your end. But that would require actual EFFORT on your part. And there is obviously some level disconnect when it comes to that. Oh well."
Nice Projection. Seriously.
Exactly that’s why I am saying you are ATTEMPTING to Gaslight. It’s just not very good when I can see above that I said I misquoted DB about witch time and then you tried to say that Witch time is altering “Self time” or some crap like that even though I even said that after I misquoted DB about it slowing down time that its not a thing. Bayonetta doesn’t slow down time she just amps herself. Which is why again I reiterate that she can NOT resist time control since she can’t do anything with time other than make herself fast. Yeah she doesn’t slow down time and she can’t do anything when someone casts a time manip around her. Like Dante in the DB video. Hence why it makes sense. Which harks back once again to you just not understanding the research cause your limited when it comes to critical thinking.
DeleteAgain that’s false what you said. Kayima was CLEAR that time alteration in Bayonetta is self amps or the other being altering THAT other person. He made it clear that Time alteration in general mainly relies on speeding yourself up or slowing that person done. So this idea that Alder Aesir and Strider have time manipulation abilities is just erroneous on your end. By Kayima’s very own words time control is manipulating yourself or the other person and Not actually altering the fabrics of time. Those freezing spells is Aesir Balder or Strider affecting HER ability to move fast or HER movement. It doesn’t slow down time no matter how it looks. According to Kayima time alteration is an amp or a dampen given to someone else. Such as Aesir using it on Bayonetta to slow her down or freeze her. Unless you have a quote from Kayima saying “oh yeah Aesir, Balder and Strider can slow down, speed up the fabrics of time” then that’s not a thing.
Also Time traveling in this aspect is going back into a different part of time. The Delorean can time travel. Other characters can time travel. They can’t manipulate time around them and slow down the settings of time like Dante can which can and DOES affect bayonetta since again she is in THAT setting. In THAT sense they’re either affecting themselves or other people.
And I agree you really should stop but I guess you’re just a sucker for being proven wrong and perhaps you like looking like an invalid. You should seek professional help for that. No Geralt is NOT canon to Soul Calibur. Because Soul Calbur is NOT canon to the witcher series. They don’t share the same universe. The creator of the witch and CD Projekt red have NOT stated anything to confirm this. Its pretty simply really but again this seems to go over your head like a lot of things in life. Ergo your attempts to struggle.
Of course what CD Projek Red or Sapkowski says matter since they’re the ones who created the character of Geralt and his world. So unless they say otherwise and unless we see Sophiotia or Taki teaming up with Yennifer then its NOT canon. It’s a cameo appearance that has no canonical impact on soul calibur OR the witcher. Not Canon
And to be frank Sapkowski sold the rights to the witcher to CD Projekt Red so they really determine if Geralt is canon to soul calbiur. But again neither of them confirmed that since you don’t really see Geralt in ancient Greece battling sophitia. The concept of “something being in a game doesn’t mean canon” is again lost on you. Which is really funny since its not a hard concept to grasp. Whats your excuse?
And honestly, yeah, you're right. I am stupid. I'm stupid for thinking this was a valuable discussion to have, stupid for thinking it was worthwhile to try and find common ground, and stupid for just engaging with you for this long when your intentions were clear from the start.
Oh you’re definitely stupid. And as you stated. Glad we agree on that. Not for the reason you want to think but your idea that Geralt is canon to soul calibur even though he made no appearances in the other games. Nor do we see Cervantes fighting ciri. But I’m glad we can come to terms on that.
Hey I guess you were right about something after all! lol
Also the few extra seconds wouldn't matter again since in Quicksilver Dante controls the time and the speed of the enviorment around him. Last I checked in a fight your opponent is in your enviorment...
DeleteKayima was talking about Time manipulation in the context of the game. Where he says that Time manipulation in the game works as a speed amp. Not a time manipulation amp since you’re only manipulationg yourself not time. There are not actual time manipulation powers that bayo has and certainly none that she is resistant to. That’s not a thing.
DeleteIn the context of the game Time manipulation doesn’t slow down or speed up time. Its simply just amplyifying her speed. It doesn’t affect time. As again Kayima said it himself. Its not a time manip. It’s a speed manip
No time travel is NOT time manipulation in term of speed. You’re going to a certain point in time. You’re not changing the speed of time. When you travel to the past the speed of time is still the same. You’ just going to a different point in history. Does the deloren in back to the future change the speed of time? No its just going to the 1950s. That’s not a speed amp but its also NOT a time manipulation. And neither in the
And Aeiser can travel through time yes. But again travel through time does not equate to slowing down the speed of time or the fabrics of time. Not the same.
Again it doesn’t matter HOW fast she is going she is STILL part of that environment that Dante can mainulapte through quick silver. So even if she was moving as fast the flash once he activates Quick Silver it’s over for her since again this impacts the environment. Its pretty simple really. Shes part of the environment and Quicksilver controls it time wise. INCLUDING her and her attempts to be wally west. So your speedster analogy is not valid because hed still control her. Unless the laws of physics changed during our conversation when someone is in the room with you they’re in the same environment.
And you’re just overrating Bayonetta’s time stacking gameplay mechanism because it doesn’t last 5 to ten minutes. If that was the case then the whole game wouldn’t be a challenge. It last a few extra seconds at the MOST maybe 30 to 35 seconds tops? I think youre greatly over exagertating her abilities but then again as I pointed out your arguments aren’t in very good faith. Stacking time again at most adds a few more seconds/. Not this non excisting 5 to ten minute ratio. But since you’re going in that direction then Dante can in a way use Quicksilver indefinitely since in super DT mode his depleation of DT never runs out. But again since that’s essentially just speed manip he wouldn’t need 25 seconds of Quicksilver since it only takes a few seconds to activate it, less than a second to slow her down and the rest to use an attack on her.
But since this is theoretically just SPEED Dante has shown to match that in his trickster ability which shows him moving at the blink of an eye when hes covering distance. So whatever she thinks she has he can basically match or do better . Despite your attempts to give her a five to ten minute time limit that isn’t in the game. A for effort though.
And mind you thats only AFTER she pulls off combos. Once thats interupted so is its durration. Again its useless against dante since his natural speed OUTSIDE of quicksilver is basically immesurable but renders her into a sitting duck if he uses QS.
DeleteWhy the fuck are you just lying on what Kamiya said, when we both have the quote on hand?
Delete"Both Witch Time and Lightspeed are things that speed up the person themselves, rather than manipulating time... "
This is him explaining what Witch Time and Light Speed are, not him saying that all examples of time-manipulation in the Bayonetta series is always speed-manipulation.
And yes, Witch Time and Light Speed is not time-manipulation, it is speed manipulation. Actual time-manipulation and Witch Time/Light Speed are different things.
And the speedster analogy applies because that is how those powers function. A time-slow effects everything, and makes everything slower, but the speedster is still faster than the normal speed of the world. You do understand that, correct? If I slow down everything by 1/2 the rate of the world, but there is a speedster who is moving 2x faster than the rate of the world, our "speed" would be equal when our powers are active.
And I am not overstating Bayonetta's time stacking abilities, since those examples of it lasting 5-10+ minutes aren't even gameplay mechanics, they are scripted sequences and cutscenes. Bayonetta can actually hold Witch Time up to that long in-lore, as demonstrated multiple times through the games.
But I am again reminded, on how you claimed that "I don't play these games," and "I don't know what I'm talking about," when you say stuff like this. Like, fuck, if you actually just even read this blog, you'd see the examples posted of those sequences. It's actually insane that's there's even a disagreement here, when it literally occurs in-game.
And that second comment tells me everything that I needed to hear (that of which I didn't know already). Witch Time's dodge requirement is actually just a gameplay mechanic, in-lore she can use it whenever she wants. And again, if you literally just played the FIRST chapter of Bayonetta 1, you would realize all this, since the first chapter establishes what Witch Time can actually do via cutscenes and scripted sequences.
DeleteWhy are you trying to retcon what he put in the game? Where in this quote did he say Aesir Balder and Strider have Time changing abilitites that can change the speed of time? He didn’t. That’s just you in bad faith
DeleteThis is him using these as examples but in the context of the game since even Aesir uses light speed that is a SPEED changer. He never said they have time changing abilities
Yeah no kidding witch time and Light Speed is not time manipulation. No one in the bayo games has the ability to speed or slow down time. Unless he makes a statement in the next few seconds this is a retcon attempt on your end.,
No it does because of how drastically different Quicksilver works in contrast to witch. You said it yourself witch time CONTROLS Bayonetta’s speed. Quicksilver CONTROLS Time and the environment around you. So once Dante uses that he basically controls Bayonetta’s speed and how he can negate it. That speedster anlogy has not place here since how different these two abilities work. But even in that sense again Dante has immessurable speed and reaction time in his in game abilities so even in this sense witch time wouldn’t matter since he could match that outside of quick silver. Again changing the speed of time > Changing you.
You are most certainly overtating and overrating her time stacking skills because again it doesn’t laste 5 to ten minutes as you said most of it at the most extending it a few seconds. Even the base time for Witch time is no longer than 6 seconds or so. So this maybe adds about 10 or 20 extra seconds of gameplay?
Again this is just you overtating and overrating what she can actually do. That’s basically just you over stating her abilities. But you’re right its funny that you’re doubling down on this when even in the gameplay it extends her time a few seconds so its just really funny watching you double down on your ret con attempts.
But lets say Im generous and grant you that she can use witch time for over five minutes (Gameplay says otherwise) Dante outside of Quicksilver can match this with his trickster skills which he can do indefinitely. So again even outside of quicksilver he could match her speed and her reaction time so again how does this help her? It doesn’t. its essentially useless. But again that is if I were to grant you this courtesy 10 minute grace period. And again like I said in SD form he can basically use quicksilver in definitely.
So as the kids say these days, she be fucked.
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DeleteAnd in the first chapter when she uses withctime for the first time in chapter 1 it only lasts a few seconds during the gameplay. What? Lol And When did I say that she can’t use it whenever she wants? I said that it doesn’t last indefinitely and 5 to ten minute as you suggest and it doesn’t but again if I were to grant you this it still wouldn’t matter since your argument is that it can counter quicksilver which it cant since again she is just moving fast and not changing time. HE IS. And even outside of that he can still match her speed In witch time with his styles specifically trickster. So she literally has nothing against him
DeleteNot to mention that he can actually also resist witch time too so there's that/ Since its basically just being really fast./
DeleteYou attempting to twist his words around so it fits your narrative does not change what he said. Him explaining what Witch Time and Light Speed does not void the other time-manipulation powers blatantly demonstrated in the series.
DeleteAnd Quicksilver doesn't just grant him total control over someone's speed, it specifically works by making him faster, and slowing down the world. The speedster analogy fits perfectly, since that is how Quicksilver and Witch Time work, both function by giving the user a relative time-slow+speed amp/speed amp, that slows or makes the world appear to slow at similar rates. And Trickster wouldn't make much of a difference considering Trickster is basically just short dash, not a constant speed amp.
And I am not overstating or overrating how Witch Time works. Literally, play the fucking game. Or perhaps, READ THE FUCKING BLOG, YA KNOW, THE BLOG THAT YOU'VE BEEN COMMENTING ON FOR 5 MONTHS.
I'm actually convinced you just absent mindedly skimmed over part 1, and then for part 2, just read Team Bayo's final paragraph where they said she wins.
And for fucks sake, just the amount of times you lied in this discussion is baffling, from flip flopping on your points, to saying that I don't play the Bayonetta games like you have, despite it being overwhelming clear that you have never played them yourself.
And another reminder, you can't "resist" a speed-amp; to contend with an amp you need to amp yourself and/or use a time-slow to make the speed difference equal.
>"And When did I say that she can’t use it whenever she wants?"
And again, since I know it's hard for you to keep up with this conversation, never mind your own points, you literally said, only a few replies up, "And mind you thats only AFTER she pulls off combos. Once thats interupted so is its durration," in reference to Witch Time.
So as the adults say these days, you are perhaps a bit borderline obsessed, and just a tad bit maybe (excuse my ad hominem (granted you've been insulting me this entire debate)), mentally unwell?
No You are trying to retcon his game and what he actually puts in the game. Aesir doesn’t have the ability to change the speed of time. Neither does strider or Balder for that matter. That’s not a thing. That’s you retconning Kayima’s work. This just projection on your end. This thing
DeleteYes it does. The whole purpose of quick silver is dante CONTROLLING the environment around him through time manipulation. That’s the lore of quicktime. The speedster analogy makes absolutely NO sense since the flash can only change his SPEED not TIME. Dante changes and controls time around him and his environment. Bayonet is in his environment in a battle. That means Dante can change her speed ergo quicksilver can cancel out witch time. And Trickster is basically in a sense Withc time since its still amping his speed as is his DT form since those are all speed amps. But trickster is just much more faster since its basically just teleportation. So again what she has at her disposal is basically useless against Dante/
Yes you are. You said witch time lasts 5 to ten minutes. In the game that’s not a thing. Especially when stacking witch time it only extends it a few seconds. The first chapter when you USE witch time it doesn’t even last that long when its introduced.
An d I went through this already with you. They deemed bayonetta the winner at the end of this analysis. They even say it when they said “the devil will cry the last time” that’s giving her the W based off discrepancies that are in the blog. Like the one I mentioned about Non canon items being used as an analays. Ive already explained and debunked this point of yours so I dunno why you’re bringing it up again.
And those weren’t lies by the way because Im convinced that you’re not the right person to be talking about this since you think Chain Chomp is canon to bayonetta even though no one in bayonetta made an appearance in the mario bros game . But again that’s just you not knowing what canoncity is . But again your only tactic is just bad faith arguments. Like trying to make Geralt canon in soul calibur despite CD project basically saying “fuck that” right? Lol. Ok
Ok in that case dante can resist bayonetta’s paltry speed amp then since he can match her speed with his other styles and even in some cases control it all together with quicksilver. So that’s more than enough to cancel it out.
And another reminder, you can't "resist" a speed-amp; to contend with an amp you need to amp yourself and/or use a time-slow to make the speed difference equal.
That was in reference to witch time STACKING you knw the thing that you claim ads an entire ten minutes to her witch time? When it really doesn’t? I even mention that in the paragraph before when I said that stacking witch time is useless against him since he can control time with Quicksilver. Its in the previous post lol.
But anyways like the snowflakes on twitter would say (I think that’s where you got your conversational skills from by the way). I think you’re projecting.
Stop the Cap. 😊
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DeleteBut you're right dude Im the one lying./ Even though you're retconning Kayimas work. Trying to make a non canon weapon in the game CANON and trying to argue that Witch time can match Quicksilver when Quicksilver controls time and the enviorment. Again last I checked baynetta fighting dante is bayonetta being in Dante's enviroment and surrounding area. But hey maybe the laws of phyisics has changed during our convo right? lol
Deletebut sure Im the liar. Not you the human retcon machine.
Whatever you say dude. Lol
Whatever you say Retconner. Let me know when you figured out how canoncity works.
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ReplyDeleteThe DMC fandom lied to us. The Chinese texts used to force the tie are nowhere to be found in PoC. They were likely fanmade. Don't know why these fans are so pathetic and always rigging everything so desperately in favor of Dante and other DMC characters.
ReplyDeleteYou're really butthurt over Dante beating bayonetta aren't you? Get over it! Your girl lost to Dante and rightfully so. And this was before POC was a thing. Dunno why you brought up POC when Death Battle's analysis was made BEFORE POC was a thing. You';re not doing the bayonetta fandom any favors by acting like a sore loser. This behavior of yours is very embarassing.
DeleteReposting what others find out about the DMC hoax:
DeleteI took time to read about the whole DCM "lore forge" incident and I agree that all of this was completely intentional. DMC supporters are mentally ill for real. They came up with scans, videos with fake loading screens, and even an "official" Peak of Combat Discord to fool everyone. For 2 years they tried to keep up this ruse.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/devils-do-cry-peak-of-conspiracy.160099/
But some are probably wondering: Why the fuck this happened? And well, I got my theory thanks to the mods pointing out the date on which this entire incident started. July 22nd, 2021.
It may have been because of Bayonetta 2. To be more specific, Comicgyal's lore research. An article that had the aim of proving that Bayonetta's setting was a complex or extradimensional multiverse and which has been shared here a couple of times. Something that I suppose was proven right with the release of the third game.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comicgyal/The_Way_to_Paradise
These parts are the ones that caught my attention for reasons that I will explain below:
>The diamonds represent Bayonettas spacetime. "Each component is said to represent a single layer in the matrix of time and space that forms our universe."
>So if these diamonds represent the dimensions that make up their space-time, just how many are there? Well I've counted, and there are exactly eight diamonds on the official illustration. Meaning Bayonettas universe is at bare minimum made up of eight dimensions.
So let's recapitulate. DMC supporters began to fabricate lore that declared that the game's setting multiverse was composed of at least 9 dimensions on July 22, 2021.
A Bayonetta researcher shared his lore analysis that proposes that the game's multiverse is composed of at least 8 dimensions... on April 5, 2021.
The conclusion as to why all this mess happened is now obvious.
This is the most pathetic act I have seen any fandom in a battleboard discussion ever pull off. What kind of psychos are these desperate to spread lies on the Internet over such a trivial matter and keep this up for 2 years? The DMC folks aren't worth having a debate with. I wouldn't be surprised if you were part of this ruse, considering all the replies you have left on this page. Seek an actual therapist.
DeleteEdit: I deleted my previous comment because I didn't clarify well enough that I don't mean G1 being the ones that forged the PoC lore. G1 was also deceived by those who made this Chinese lore and uploaded it to VSBW. The names of these sick forgers that are to blame for everything are on the first link I shared. Sadly, multiple persons are behind this farce.
Oh Kos mos I think you're projecting your own mental illness here because this response of yours tells me that you obvioulsy have some kind of brain malfuction going on inside of you. See if you actually knew anything ABOUT the history of POC you'd know that this scan was an original draft that came frm nebula joy. This was during the Betaphase of the game while it was in their earlier stages. Funny enough we have confirmation from actual people from the POC team that the new scans are being worked on and they're going to be added into the final version of the game for it's global release date.
DeleteThis has been stated many times already by the DMC fandom but you seem like the type of person who would make statements without doing any kind of further research. That's the downfall of the bayonetta fandom isn't it? always putting their foot in their mouths and making themselves look ridiculous.
It's actually hilarous how uninformed and stupid you sound right now. I honestly mean that since you use Vsbattle WIKI of all pages as one of your sources lol. Unfortunately for you and Ms Comicgyal here (the writer of the hilarous blog) using Vsbattle Wiki's "graph" when it comes to scaling characters doesn't always work out the way you want it to.
Lets start with The requirements to become "low 1-c" or Low Complex multiversal as they state it. In order to be "Complex Multiversal" In order to be considered "complex Multiversal" characters have to "create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model'
Here's the problem with that . Some of the characters they list Do NOT have those capabilities. Such as Deimos from the God of War series they list as "low 1-c" when he was easily taken out by Thanatos in Ghost of Sparta. He couldn't even break out of the prison that Athena had him in He's about as "Complex multiversal" as a harpe. THey also list The Doctor from Doctor Who as "complex outeversal" now as anyone who knows Doctor who, he doesn't create or destroy the entirety of spaces" in fact his latest renditions, The Doctor is constantly making mistakes in trying to fix time and space realities that were out of his control.
Case in point when Rose tyler . Rose's mistake caused a huge rift in the space time continium and HE didn't know how to fix it. The whole episode was of Rose and the Doctor trying to figure out how rose's pressence in her universe caused an incursion into the other realities and it was revealed that it was THE DOCTOR that actually caused it, but Rose's pressence in thosr realities.
So these are one of MANY different examples of Vs Battle wiki just making absoltely nonsensical statements on their ends.
Now as for Comicgyal's blunderous attemept to Scale bayonetta here's a problem with her post here. It's all wrong. All of it. If we were to take EVERY bit of Kayima's lore word for word then that means Aesir's presence along would crumble the fabric of reality and time it's self. That doesn't happen in the game. In fact in the game we're shown that even a younger version of Balder was able to absorb him by the end of the third game. That SHOULDN'T happen if Aesir was this powerful. Nor should he be able to be beaten by a weakend Queen Sheba whos presence in the human world is already weakening her as even stated by Kayima's contradicting Lore. I just wanted to get that out of the way
DeleteNot to mention the fact that even in bayonetta's lore they call the Verses of Paradiso, Purgatorio and what not as reality divine plains and not universes. This was based off the book of the Divine Comedy so if were going by that then Inferno, Paradiso, and Purgatorio are not universes that make up a universe.
Second as far as the scans go when it comes to DMC POC, that was on Nebula Joy's end who made those scans and as I stated before these scans are from an initial Beta release for the game that are being reworked and edited on for the actual global release that is coming up in January. This was actually confirmed by an actual member of the dev team.
Feel free to post more misinformation Kosy. I'll be here to debunk you.
Oh and before I forget you wanna know the funny thing about my response in debunking your mentally challenged response? I didn't even have to use any actual scaling site lol. I debunked your nonsense simply by referencing the lore. THe Lore that YOU did not even consult when crafting your barely readable response. In your sad attempts to debunk and slander and entire fanbase you outed yourself as a brainless moronic twit that gets their information off of a site like Vsbattle WIKI of all places lol
DeleteAnd to further embarass you and humiliate you and every brain dead Bayonetta fan that you represent from the equally pathetic subreddit, here's the kicker for you. The scaling for Dante and bayonetta came out BEFORE POC was a thing lol. That means that Dante was curb stomping your favorite glass canon bozo BEFORE POC even came out!
Wow! Didn't think about that before you tried to put two sentences together with you limited skills did you? XD
It seems you have left over 70 replies in this page. Not going to join you in your lunacy. The DMC information used on this research getting fraudchecked evidently drove you insane. As I said before, seek an actual theraphist. Unlike DMC psychos, I don't have time to go around fabricating lore and keeping a ruse for 2 years. I'm glad that this absurd farce is over. DMC fans made the biggest ridicule I have seen in any battleboard discussion ever and this stain will never be washed away. You are undeserving of our trust and respect.
DeleteIs this you ducking out like a coward whenever your nonsense has been debunked? All you had to say was that you're scared of having your lame opinion challenged and that would've sufficed. You did the samething when you spammed the DMC fanbase on Death Battle's youtube videos.
DeleteAnd you ran like a little bitch there just like you're doing now. Maybe if you did some actual research over the topic at and actually looked into what was actually being discussed in the community you might not sound like some salty ass butthurt Bayo stan.
But its really funny you say you don't have time to go around and making up scams when you're literally spamming the same comment on different youtube videos and trying to pick fights with DMC fans over your own inability to power scale or cite lore to back up your claims. The bayonetta fandom was always a pathetic joke when it came to DB scaling Dante higher than their favorite glass canon and you're living proof of that.
You're a perfect example of the bayo fandom capping hard when it comes to their favorite mary sue Taking an L. Keep making your idiotic fandom look even more childish and ridiculous. You're doing a good job of making them the running gag of the power scaling community XD
You are just as pathtic and fatherless as your favorite heroine.
I also hate to rain on your stupid parade but the scan that you are referring to from VSBW that called POC a "9D" dimension was never used in this analysis. In fact if you bothered to READ the blog, the only thing they TOOK from POC it's self was the lore of the game and its gameplay. They never even considred reading the "9d" part.
DeleteI know for a fact that you didn't read the blog by the way cause they referenced this multiple times
"So while the argument does overall have a precedent, it’s not entirely reliable to label Dante as 9D or higher-dimensional based on the evidence that we currently have.
"Similarly, while the terminology used for the Soul statement mentions geometric dimensions in regard to "9D”, Peak of Combat never goes to any length to explain how these dimensions work, nor are they ever shown or stated to be qualitatively superior to the prior. Further context is needed for this."
Taken straight from the blog themselves.
You're a loser
As for your other hilariously Moronic and pathetic attempt to debunk g1 and try to turn this into some DMC fan ruse. I hate to break it to you dude but I think your smooth brain failed to grasp the information at hand. But lets get into your mentally ill logical shall we?
Delete1. You cited something from the VSBW forums (as if VSBW was a reliable scaling site lol) stating that the “official peak of combat discord was fooled’ well I hate to break it to you but none of the DEVS are associated with anyone on the discord let alone the mods of that site. The info take in this blog comes from POC the game it’s self and NOT that scan which they disregarded in the first place
2. Now here is the PROBLEM with using VSBW as a scaling method. It doesn’t work. There’s no actual method to fully determine what dimension Bayonetta is on and to say she is ‘1-c” whatever the fuck that means just makes you ridiculous. In fact this entire blog doesn’t even do that 9d or 1-c complex Multiversal shit which you would’ve known if you read it. But the problem with this user that you are citing is that what she is saying is false. She cites Irenic as a method of “infinite speed” but in the very first game Irenic is no more faster than a regular motor bike. That’s show in the game it’s self when bayonetta uses a bic to keep up with the speed of irenc.
3. This brings me to the third point, The Journal Echo’s is written by luka. Luka as shown in the game has proven to be questionable and spotty at best when it comes to his research. But he even says that it is “Said” to be a matrix of time and space. Nothing concrete in his research to make this a confirmation. So this idea that bayonetta’s universe is made up of “eight dimensions” even though the cosmology was just Inferno, bottom, World of Chaos, middle, and Paradiso on top, that’s at MOST three.
4. >The diamonds represent Bayonettas spacetime. "Each component is said to represent a single layer in the matrix of time and space that forms our universe."
Also That whole 9d that solely from VSBW no other site. Not that G1 uses vsbw as a method of scaling since im sure they base it off of what DB does and they’re more about volume that this dimensional nonsense.
In otherwards this bayonetta “researcher” might as well be citing Fanfiction as their source of claims.
You didn’t disprove anything other than the fact that you sound as as pathetic here as you do in the youtube comment section when you tried to lie about Boom and Wiz using POC in their research even though the video came out BEFORE POC was in prodiction.
If you’re not good at lying, and you’re bad at it obvi, don’t do it. Or else some one like me is just gonna come here and debunk your stupid ass.
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