“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart.”
-Marcus Aurelius
Joker, the Heart-Stealing Phantom Thief.
Giorno, the Golden Godfather of Passione.
Being on the side of good doesn’t always mean being on the side of the law. These two seemed doomed to be forever outcasts in the trenches of society, but despite all the men and thieves coming down, they defied the doomed fate coming to them, rising up to be the leaders they were meant to be and achieve greatness. And along the way, they changed many hearts, and those hearts would become family to them. Coming from the 5th installments of their iconic franchises, these supernatural spirit-wielders are finally here to face down, in a fight where only the devils and angels stand witness. Can the Phantom of Thieves tread through the Golden Wind, or will Gold Experience Requiem claim another Prisoner of Fate? May the resolve and myriad truths be revealed in this DEATH BATTLE!
Before We Start…
For Joker, we’ll be using Persona 5, P5 Royal, all of the Persona 5 spin-offs like Strikers & the manga(s) as well as all other games in the main series such as 1, 2, 3, 4, and the Arena games + their manuals/artbooks. A major note is that Shin Megami Tensei scaling will be mostly disregarded for the purposes of the blog as to make it more based around Persona itself. However, other canonical Atlus media related to it such as SMT If… Devil Summoner games, Soul Hackers, or Catherine are fair game, as well as any supporting evidence drawn from SMT.
For Giorno, the manga and anime adaptation will be the primary resources. Eyes Over Heaven will also be allowed, as it is official Jojo media affiliated with Araki, and has no reason to be excluded given the spin offs allowed for Persona.
Background
Joker
Beginning as any other average teen his age, Ren Amamiya would be thrusted into a life changing ordeal. One night, he spotted a woman being assaulted by a drunken man, which prompted him to save her, and causing the man to hurt his head and decide to sue. This man was Masayoshi Shido, a corrupt politician who black mailed the woman to testify that Ren had assaulted him. Permanently blotting his record, Ren was ascribed a criminal record and expelled from his school. Now on probation, Ren was forced to transfer to a new city, a new school, and begrudgingly be taken in by his new foster father, Sojiro Sakura.
After moving into his new home and drifting to sleep, Ren experienced a bizarre awakening as he found himself in the Velvet Room, a reality between mind and matter. There, he would be greeted by a man named Igor, who proffered a contract for rehabilitation after warning him of an impending disaster said to bring ruin to the entire world. Upon reawakening to the real world, Ren would meet a fellow student named Ann Takamaki, who was given a lift to Shujin Academy by the PE teacher Suguru Kamoshida. Following this, a rebellious boy named Ryuji Sakamoto arrived to express his deep hatred for Kamoshida.
After some initial conversing, Ren and Ryuji depart to the school, but unbeknownst to them, they would be walking towards an inexplicable castle in the place of the school. Upon entering, they would be ambushed by a legion of knights and locked in a dungeon, where they would be greeted by a yellow eyed Kamoshida in the form of the castle’s king. After ordering their execution, Ryuji and Ren would be ruthlessly beaten by the knights and pinned against a wall despite their struggle. When all hope seemed lost, a blue butterfly and internal voice reached out to Ren to tell him of this impossible game enforced on him. Upon affirming his resolve, the voice manifested as Ren’s Persona; Arsene. Complete with new attire befitting the rebellious thief, Ren was ready to fight against the unjust society that had wronged him.
After trouncing Kamoshida’s knights and escaping, Ren and Ryuji would stumble upon a mysterious cat-like creature named Morgana. Who promised to assist them in exchange for freeing him from his cell. After escaping, they would learn what they experienced was a Palace, a materialized area from the Metaverse based on a person’s distorted desires. In Kamoshida’s case, his lust for power and abuse he’s inflicted on the students had deluded himself into seeing himself as the school’s king. This included Ann and her best friend Shiho, to the point where the latter had attempted suicide in order to escape from it all.
Following this, Ren, Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana all banded together to put an end to Kamoshida’s hold on the school. To do so, they had sent out a calling card threatening to steal his heart, in order to make his treasure materialize in his palace. After successfully carrying this out, Kamoshida would undergo a change of heart, confessing to every atrocious act he had committed and turning himself in to the police. With this success, the gang had decided to form a new group titled the Phantom Thieves of Heart, with the goal of stealing the hearts of reprehensible adults and corrupt people in power in order to reform society into a better place for all.
Dawning the code name Joker and his conviction stronger than ever, Ren would lead the thieves valiantly across various palaces, saving many in the process who would support him in his crusade. He eventually managed to topple the false god of control Yaldabaoth and even saved reality itself from the Gentle Madman, Takuto Maruki. With his life reinstated and probation lifted thanks to his friend’s joined efforts, Joker would return home, now free from his chained past and ready to press on facing fate and life anyway he can.
Giorno
“I, Giorno Giovanna, have a dream that I know is just.”
Born as one of many bastard sons of DIO, Giorno Giovanna, formerly Haruno Shiobana, had it hard growing up in Napoli as his mother neglected him, and his stepfather abused him. From a young age, Giorno learned that to cry was useless. Things weren’t much better with others as his status as a foreigner and his emotionally closed off nature made him an easy target for the locals, slowly leading Giorno to believe he had no value as a human being. It almost seemed as if the son of DIO would become another like him, until a fateful meeting changed all that.
Giorno witnessed a dying man, and though he didn’t know why, he felt compassion for a man who seemed as lonely as him. Even when a dangerous group of men demanded to know if Giorno had seen anything, the boy felt no fear as he lied to their face. Bizarrely, the grass near the man had grown to the extent it hid his body well, a power Giorno had used subconsciously to protect the man. This was the first time Giorno used Gold Experience, his Stand.
Though Giorno thought nothing of it at the time, the man didn’t forget the debt he owed to Giorno, and soon Giorno found his life would change for the better. His father no longer hit him, the kids his age liked him, and he even got free scoops of ice cream. Giorno had a silent and watchful guardian looking out for him, who treated him as a human despite Giorno’s odd nature. Though a trait he should have learned from his parents, Giorno learned the value of trust from wordless exchanges with a benevolent stranger. However, the man didn’t want Giorno to follow his path, keeping him at arm’s length.
This wouldn’t stop Giorno from witnessing an event where the man took away the life of a bastard who sold drugs to women and children, and though others might have considered the gangster scum for his murder, Giorno didn’t remotely see things that way. He admired the man, and his heart became one of gold, as he was filled with resolve to be a man who would straighten out the mafia and return them back to their old ways of protecting the community, in a city of corrupt politicians and police who wouldn’t raise a hand for the weak. He would become a Gang-Star. In the midst of investigation into DIO, Giorno’s existence was discovered by Jotaro Kujo, who sent the most reliable guy he knew to investigate, Koichi Hirose. Koichi met with Giorno sooner than expected, when the young man robbed him of his luggage. There, Giorno for the first time met an enemy Stand user, and would quickly come to understand there were more like him.
This encounter would prepare Giorno for when he’d have to face Bruno Bucciarati, who had come after Giorno for attacking another member of Passione, the mafia Bruno worked for. Though Bruno had full intentions to kill during their fight, after witnessing Bruno’s brief reaction to seeing a child with a drug injected arm, Giorno’s ability to read the hearts of others since childhood allowed him to realize Bruno was a good man, and so he ended his assault, confident Bruno would follow suit, which he did. Having earned Bruno’s respect, Giorno explained his desire to take over the mafia, which the gangster was moved by and agreed to help Giorno.
And so began Giorno’s bizarre adventure, as he traveled across Italy alongside Bruno’s own gang of misfits, all of whom had similar harsh backgrounds they had undergone. With Giorno to back them up, they would help instate Bruno as the new capo after the mysterious death of the former capo Polpo, defeat every member of the hit squad La Squadra and special squad L' Unità, and even reveal the true form of Passione’s leader, Diavolo. Though the journey was hard, with comrades leaving and even dying, Giorno’s heart remained strong, and eventually with Diavolo defeated with the help of his friends, he would become Passione’s new leader, one who would reform the mafia with a new golden heart.
Experience & Skill
Joker
Throughout his time as a Phantom Thief, Joker has become a very skilled individual in many areas. He’s successfully pulled off 9 Palace heists as well as 8 heists, and has matched hands with the likes of Goro Akechi, a Persona user who had been operating for over two years prior to the events of the game. In addition, Joker has been able to match members of the Investigation Team and SEES, including the likes of Mitsuru and Akihiko, who had also been operating as Persona users for years. He also fought evenly with SEES in the Abyss of Time, after they’d operated for over a year and fought against the avatar of Nyx.
As well, Persona users gain the skill and experience of their Personas, meaning that Joker would likely have all the skills and experience of his many mythological personas, giving him thousands of years worth in terms of combat skill at his disposal. He’s no slouch in planning, either - having worked out that Akechi was a traitor, he along with the other Phantom Thieves made a plan that fooled him into thinking Joker was dead, allowing him to operate under the radar until the moment was right to strike, carrying out the majority of said plan while in immense pain and drugged.
Giorno
Giorno has a strong ability to read the hearts and emotions of others, a skill he’s trained since his childhood. He also possesses masterful sleight of hand, able to steal from a prison guard right in the middle of a body search. His time with Passione has showcased his incredible leadership abilities, gaining the trust of multiple members such as Fugo and Mista, to the point where they see him as a mentor of his own, with Bruno himself saying Giorno has a way of getting people to accept and trust him, and his presence fills others with courage.
Though the time he spent actively battling was short, about a week, Giorno accrued valuable experience in fighting, both with using GE’s powers and facing down unique opponents. In true JoJo fashion, Giorno is incredibly tactical in a fight, able to point out patterns, analyze his foes and what they do, and generally plan ahead. This is what allowed Giorno to create an antidote for Fugo’s stand, Purple Haze, and what allowed him to deduce that Diavolo was possessing one of his teammates despite limited information. His tactics and way of thinking have been taken note of by his teammates, such as Fugo noting that Giorno thinks on a different scale.
Equipment
Joker
Meta-Nav
An app on Ren’s cell phone which acts as his entrance in and out of the cognitive world. Being in the proximity of anyone using it will forcefully drag them into the Metaverse as well, and anyone exiting will be seen as quickly apparating into reality, though not instant. In Persona 5 Strikers, the app returns, allowing free roam in and out of the world without delay or cooldown.
Daggers
Joker's main weapon of choice are short bladed weapons, which generally consist of daggers. He's very skilled and proficient with the blade, and has access to a plethora of daggers which offer different effects and enhancements.
Guns
For his neutral special, he wields a gun. Joker can carry several different types of guns with various effects, strengths and levels of efficiency. However, one thing they all have in common is that Joker does not use any real bullets. While in the Metaverse, his guns are able to rely on the psychosomatic expectation of his opponents based on their cognition. In other words, if you believe that his guns have real bullets, then they will materialize in the Metaverse and be able to deal real harm to you. Despite this, Joker can only use a maximum of 32 bullets for each individual fight, although they replenish between battles due to each opponent having a different cognition.
Grappling Hook
As any self respecting thief would have, Joker comes equipped with a grappling hook. Its utility allows him to launch it at a multitude of vantage points, to traverse around the environment or reach hard to access locations. Moreover, he’s also put it to effective use in combat by aiming at enemies in order to latch onto them, making it easy to close the distance for an ambush.
Armor
What’s the first thing you think of when you think of a stealthy, operatic phantom? That’s right, bulky armor. Joker has access to a plethora of armor to increase his own defense while also granting additional effects.
Accessories
Joker’s drip is his deadliest weapon. With his dozens of different accessories, Joker is able to grant himself additional bonuses to aid him in battle, some of them even giving him blanket resistances to certain status ailments or affecting his physical attributes at the start of battle.
Recovery Items
As should be expected from a JRPG protagonist, Joker has an utterly ridiculous amount of items for the purposes of recovering his health and SP, as well as removing any ailments he may come across.
Battle Items
Outside of recovery, Joker has plenty of other items to increase his attack options and to provide support in difficult situations.
Infiltration Tools
What’s a good thief without the tools to perform any job efficiently? Joker has learned how to manually craft plenty of items to assist him whenever he is invading a Palace, courtesy of Morgana.
Jose’s Star
An item granted to Joker and the other Phantom Thieves by Jose, the Mementos-wandering child. It enables its wielder to facilitate any desire of their choosing by making a wish to the star. It’s predominantly used to bequeath the showtime attacks to the Phantom Thieves, and even allowed Morgana to transform into a helicopter to escape Maruki’s palace collapsing. However, its usage is limited, as this aforementioned wish depleted it of all its energy.
Giorno
Requiem Arrow
First acquired by Jean Pierre Polnareff, for whatever reason, it possesses more latent power than a regular Stand arrow. It’s able to bring out entirely new forms for a Stand, known as a ‘Requiem’ form. Polnareff first discovered the arrow’s capabilities when Silver Chariot pricked its finger trying to grab it, and later determined it was the only weapon that could stop Diavolo. Giorno eventually came into possession of it after a hard fought battle, where he used it to awaken his Stand’s own Requiem form.
Ladybug Brooches
Giorno’s outfit has ladybug brooches, which he often uses in combat when he needs a quick method of creating life, and can recall these to his outfit if he needs too.
Abilities
Joker
Trickster Nature
A title bestowed upon him for his uncanny ability to change fate, Joker is known as “the Trickster”. Throughout his journey, he has been capable of going against fate, and performing impossible feats. He was capable of defying the predictions of Chihaya, including his own death, with said divinations being known to be absolute and unchangeable. When Maruki alters reality via cognition he changes the world entirely, Joker retains his memories of the previous world in spite of this, a notable feat as it was previously considered an impossibility (notably by Tatsuya, who caused a paradox for retaining his memories of his old universe). Even in the ending where Joker allows Maruki to “win”, it is stated that he and Akechi attain their awareness and know of the interference that continues on. This ultimately culminates in the defeat of EMMA, after which Lavenza states that Joker had shattered the shackles of fate and reclaimed his own future, leaving humanity to be without a guiding hand that controls them. Joker was also able to remember the events of Persona Q2, as shown when he suddenly recognizes Hikari at the end of the game, and other protagonists have performed similar feats such as Makoto somehow remembering the events of the Dark Hour despite everyone losing their memories, and the members of S.E.E.S were even able to suddenly regain their memory of the Dark Hour in the end. The Wild Card itself is also said to be a power which can change the fates of the wielder and those around them.
Where this truly gets absurd however, is when he encounters Trisha / Ishtar from the game Catherine, and she herself states she is wary of interfering in his life, for it might change her destiny. What makes this feat highly notable is the fact that Ishtar is described as a deity who resides “outside the story” and views the world as a fictional work. She is even shown to interact with the player, and speaks of a world called “The Axis Mundi”, stating it is a realm beyond the story that is displayed on her screen. She is also directly portrayed to be unaffected by in universe alterations that affect the timeline as a whole. Yet in spite of all that, Joker’s mere nature can somehow affect her should she interact with him too liberally.
Cognition
The power of Cognition is something intrinsic to the soul, as the power that birthed creation which can be harnessed by potent wills, or the “Spirit of Speech”, the energy in words that controls the world. The whole of the universe is a product of Cognition, and can be freely reshaped by its power. All human souls contain their own personal world that represents the different way they view the world. The forces in control of Cognition are referred to as the “administrators of the unconscious”, and they can perform great feats of power, painting over the world with their cognition.
By breaking the chains of the heart and utilizing the power of the Collective Unconscious, Joker was able to overpower Yaldabaoth and wrestle control of reality away from him, nullifying it completely. In this state, Joker had taken Yaldabaoth’s place as the Administrator of the Unconscious, although he would release this power which allowed Maruki to claim it. However, as of Strikers, Joker attained and even exceeded his previous peak in power, and through his will had become a beacon of light in the Sea of Hearts that changed the unconscious and free’d its souls from the Gods of Control. Holders of the World Arcana are godlike figures that exist in a state of oneness with the universe.
Conceptual Manipulation and Reality Warping: The Collective Unconscious is a Conceptual Realm that contains all the fundamental Archetypes that dictate existence.
Space-Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, and Existence Erasure: The power of cognition is potent enough to make alterations that extend across all time and space, erasing people and actions so that they never existed nor occured, altering fate even in spaces such as the Velvet Room which operates on different laws of causality, and rewriting events in time. The Collective Unconscious also has power over infinite possibilities.
Plot Manipulation and Soul Manipulation: By utilizing the Collective Unconscious, Enlil was able to trap the souls of the masses within works of fiction.
(For a more detailed account of how Cognition interacts with the cosmology as a whole, see The Collective Unconscious)
Non-Physical Interaction
Joker is capable of fighting Shadows and Personas, the powers of the soul or the psyche, and the demons contained within the soul projected into masks. These entities exist as spiritual entities of pure thought, and the beings native to the Collective Unconscious are Archetypal beings that exist in a conceptual realm. These Archetypes all embody separate ideas, such as the negativity in everyone’s hearts, the wish for Death and Death itself, the concept of Self-Preservation, the distorted desires of mankind, the concept of control, etc.
Space-Time Manipulation
Shadows possess the power to manipulate time and space, and use this ability to generate alternate dimensions removed from the laws of the human world, and in turn those with the potential to summon a Persona are able to use this same power to adjust to different laws of time and space. Even in the Dark Hour, where the concept of time ceases to function entirely, a Persona user is able to act there. Joker himself is shown to be unaffected by time in the human world coming to a stop. SEES also subconsciously used this power to stop time and prevent it from progressing, due to their grief over Makoto’s death. Once more Joker and the Phantom Thieves show immunity to timestop during the events of Tactica.
Third Eye
An ability granted to Joker and the other Phantom Thieves by Fake Igor. It lets him see footprints, enemy strength levels, specific levers to pull, and other such tools that allow him to pull off a successful infiltration. In addition, it heightens his senses to the point he perceives events occurring at a far slower pace than before. This allows him to refine his precision when taking shots or seeing incoming projectiles. In prior titles, this ability was treated as a “radar like perception” that all Persona users had. He should also be capable of sensing the power of Persona in others.
Stealth Skills
Another of Joker’s major gimmicks as a Phantom Thief is his ability to sneak around and hide from foes. Other Persona summoners have showcased similar ability, and can avoid being sensed by someone like Rise, who has incredible sensory abilities like:
Rise’s senses were also compared to Fuuka, who can sense Makoto and Nyx fighting in the Sea of Souls while she’s still on Earth.
Negotiation Skills
Joker is an expert of the art of negotiation, his skill at tricking others through his words improving greatly through his bond with Toranosuke, a politician. Joker is a master of Manipulation and Diplomacy, his Charismatic Speeches being essentially as good as Mind Control, allowing him to easily convince Shadows to give him large amounts of money, incredibly rare items, or even join his cause outright. These Shadows are often mindlessly loyal to their respective palace masters and controlled via distortions. After changing the hearts of these Shadows, he can instantly absorb them into his mask.
Pickpocket
From his bond with Morgana, a strange talking cat, Joker learned how to steal items from opponents while in the process of attacking them, a skill more than fitting for a Phantom Thief.
Insta-Kill
A skill formed by bonding with Ryuji. Joker can (as the name implies) instantly kill any shadows considerably weaker than him by dashing forward or running them over in the Morgana car while still claiming all materials gained in a normal encounter.
Down Shot
A gun skill taught to Joker by Shinya at the arcade. It lets him instantly down an enemy, nullifying resistances and activating a hold up. It does not, however, nullify specific barriers such as tetrakarn.
Detox X
A skill taught to Joker by Doctor Maruki. It lets him instantly purge any mental or physical ailments he is afflicted with such as brainwash or fear, bar special ailments such as being turned into a rat or Yaldabaoth’s Seven Deadly Sin attacks.
Flow
Another skill taught to Joker by Doctor Maruki. This one allows him to increase the attack of himself and his personas massively for a short period of a time.
Wakefulness
Yet another skill taught to Joker by Maruki. This one restores a major chunk of his SP which has no additional cost or turn being spent should he be short on supply.
Sleuthing Instinct
Thanks to hanging out with his boyfriend Goro Akechi so much, Joker has learned how to easily learn all of the weaknesses and resistances of an opponent right at the beginning of a fight, allowing him to expertly plan around that knowledge during combat.
Physical Skills
One of the many advantages of having a Persona is gaining access to many physical skills much greater than regular melee. Joker can cast these techniques through sacrificing his own HP, allowing him to dish out large amounts of damage without having to worry about wasting his magic.
Gun Skills
Because Gun is apparently its own element in Persona. Gun skills are cast from HP just like physical skills, and one of them, Dream Needle, allows Joker to inflict Sleep on opponents.
Fire Skills
For when you have to make Shadows feel the burn. Joker has a large amount of Personas capable of unleashing the heat, and most of these spells being able to cause the Burn ailment on enemy Shadows. Even basic spells such as Agi are thousands of degrees hot.
Ice Skills
Naturally, the opposite of fire is also an element Joker can tap into. There are many Personas capable of using ice, and plenty of these spells are capable of freezing an enemy in place, leaving them completely open for a follow-up attack. Ice skills restrict the molecular activity of the target, and they can be frozen to the point of absolute zero.
Elec Skills
To really put a shock in their systems. Elec skills are powerful lightning strikes, and they can leave enemies shocked, paralyzing them and leaving them vulnerable for physical attacks.
Wind Skills
A not-so-gentle breeze. Wind causes great damage by itself, but even more so when used against enemies inflicted by burn.
Nuke Skills
The classic nuclear explosion element. These skills deal extra damage to opponents affected by Burn, Freeze or Shock, and spells like Cosmic Flare can even manifest Quasars as an attack. These attacks are stated to generate real nuclear radiation that incinerates all targets.
Psy Skills
Magic Skills that are psychokinetic in nature. These skills deal extra damage to any enemy affected by any sort of mental ailment, and even the most basic skills of this type are described as making space itself explode.
Curse Skills
Also known as dark skills or death skills, Curses are some of the most deadly spells in Joker’s arsenal. Even low level attacks such as Eiha are said to erase the existence of non-evil beings through the power of darkness, and many Curses such as Mudo can outright instantly kill those affected by them.
Bless Skills
Also known as light skills or expel skills, Bless is just as powerful as Curse, equally capable of instantly killing Joker’s enemies through the power of light. Much like their unholy counterpart, basic bless skills such as Kouha can annihilate the existence of beings with sacred power, and Hama is capable of banishing their targets to the demon realm.
Almighty Skills
Essentially the “ultimate element”, Almighty spells have no magical resistances. Other MegaTen material states that it “kills beyond death” and erases the target from existence. Almighty attacks cannot be nullified, reflected, resisted, absorbed, nor spatially warped, not even by the Omnipotent Orb which “freely manipulates the logic of the world”. Joker has an unhealthy amount of these, such as Lucifer’s Morning Star which comes from space to nuke you or the ever infamous Megidolaon, which can “transform space into nothingness” and “induce the annihilation beyond death”.
There also exists skills that can absorb the enemy’s physical and spiritual vitality under this category.
Healing Skills
Many of Joker's skills are incredibly useful healing abilities, being able to not only restore his health but also free him from most ailments, as long as he has the SP to spare. Even basic skills like Dia are shown regrowing entire limbs. And with the Patra, Energy, and Amrita lines of spells, Joker can cure various ailments such as Burn, Freeze, Shock, Dizzy, Forget, Sleep, Confuse, Fear, Despair, Rage, Brainwash, Enervation, Exhaustion, Silence, Poison, Down, Dizzy, Distress, etc. (See ailment lists here: P3, P4, P5). It can even reverse the effects of forcefully induced aging. He also has access to spells such as Recarm, which can pull the soul from the afterlife and return it to the body.
Status Effect Ailments
In Persona, there are several skills which can inflict status ailments on an opponent, which come with their own unique effects. Joker is able to utilize most of these ailments to his advantage in battle.
Specific ailments of note which Joker has access to includes spells such as Makajamon, which seals a target’s magic as well as their Persona, even stripping the target of their memories to render them helpless. Of note is that mental ailments can be used on other Persona Summoners, in spite of their innate and rather potent resistances to having their mind controlled or negated (see Will of Rebellion).
Buffs and Debuffs
With Buffs such as Sukukaja, Tarukaja, and Rakukaja, Joker can increase his stats to absurd degrees, allowing him to speed blitz precognition, survive attacks he’d normally be killed by, and draw out the latent abilities of his body. On the other hand, debuffs like Tarunda causes the body to decay and lose its strength, or forces the target to lose its vitality. He can also decrease the opponent’s speed via Sukunda.
Attack Type Resistances
Joker’s wide variety of Personas as well as items come with various ways of resisting attacks from the many Shadows he has faced throughout his Phantom Thief career. Strong means that a Persona will take less damage from a specific attack type, Null means that the attack cannot deal any harm in the slightest (including any effect that they would otherwise be able to afflict), Reflect means that the attack is sent immediately back to the attacker if aimed at Joker, and Drain means that the attack type can heal Joker instead of harming him.
Joker also has access to spells that grant the Reflect effect, such as Tetrakarn and Makarakarn, which both warp space itself to reflect attacks back at the opponent. Joker naturally has access to skills or Personas that can Null or Drain every attack element in the game, but he also has access to means of becoming immune to ailments such as Fear, Brainwash, Despair, Sleep, Confuse, Forget, and Dizzy.
Will of Rebellion
The ability to summon a Persona and the power afforded to the summoner through this, is at many times referred to as the “Will of Rebellion”. As a baseline each and every Persona user has a potent enough will that even administrators of the Collective Unconscious such as Salmael are unable to invade their minds and erase their wills. This ability to resist the destruction or possession of the ego is spoken of many times throughout the series, with cognitive power allowing one to overcome brainwashing, and retain their egos in planes of existence where this should be an impossibility. The Will of Rebellion also acts as a suit of armor that defends against distortions, which is the ability of Cognition to control and warp reality. Even direct applications of the Collective Unconscious’ Cognition such as Salmael’s cogs of fate can be negated via will.
Joker’s Will of Rebellion is so potent that even after being erased across time, he can manifest his Willpower, and return from nothingness to reclaim his existence in the world, a feat which he has performed more than once. High willpower is also shown on multiple instances to be capable of causing the Persona user to drastically increase in power and even manifest new Personas, in severe instances causing a Persona user who had their Persona ability taken away to summon a Persona despite this.
Even if a Persona user is robbed of their mind, their Persona can still fight and act regardless.Furthermore, Personas actively threaten to possess the mind of those who wield them, thus summoning strong Personas requires a powerful will to control them.
Giorno
Ear Trick
He can stuff his whole ear in his head. Seriously, how does he do that?
Life Creating
The main ability of Gold Experience, it allows Giorno to turn any inanimate object into living beings of some kind, such as animals or plants. Giorno can control what the animals and plants do despite them having will of their own, and Giorno’s extensive knowledge in all manner of flora/fauna and plant life allows him to create more complex organisms. If any life created was to go outside of Gold Experience’s range, they will return to their inanimate form, or if Giorno commands them back, though sometimes they will try and go back on their own anyways.
Giorno has many upon many instances of creating animal and plant life for a variety of purposes that relate to combat, primarily to use the unique powers and abilities that come from the life he creates, such as the time he made a snake he created to detect the body heat of someone who escaped, and to use its venom to stop the effects of a virus. Another method of life creating is making something to prevent something else from happening so its side effects can happen later, such as when he turned a gun into a banana, so when the man ate the banana, he shot himself, or when he turned the corpse of a stand into a cobra to return to its user and kill him.
As for his plants, Giorno mostly uses them for more short term combat. He can make trees to hide from people, or grass to hide others when he was a kid. He uses his roots to restrain people, stop a helicopter from getting away, and stop bullets that go through his hand. Said roots can even grow into trees if Giorno applies life to it. He can make flowers from a lighter that even when deactivated, retain the flame of the lighter.
Damage Redirection
Anything preserved with Gold Experience’s life energy or created by it will be protected and unable to be harmed, meaning any physical attack dealt to anything created by Gold Experience would be reflected back at them, potentially killing them depending on the attack. A man swatting a fly created by GE was instantly hit by the same damage, and Echoes, Koichi’s stand, attempting to attack a tree made by GE caused a crater to be created from damage that would’ve been dealt to the tree. However, strong heat sources like flames can still injure the life created.
Life Preserving
A less than simple ability on paper. While this may seem like a simple method of healing wounds, Giorno’s way of preserving life involves creating new body parts to replace wounds, such as bullet holes in Mista’s body, which he created from the many bullets that penetrated his skin. Gold Experience’s ability to create life allows him to also create vital body parts or organs that can be used to repair or replace bad wounds, such as a missing eye or a slash to the throat, and can even display control over Gold Experience’s body parts also being able to recall its severed hand back to him. In a weirder instance, Giorno’s life energy prevented Bruno from being killed by wounds that logically should’ve killed him, though this only delays the inevitable for a couple of days.
Life Shot
What happens when Gold Experience uses life imbuing on people? A simple punch from the stand will affect the target’s senses in a variety of ways, such as accelerating the senses beyond the physical capabilities of its user, perceiving things at a different rate and making them out of control. This doubles as a negative, as any pain they would feel is experienced very slowly, which Bruno admitted would’ve nearly killed him if hit with the attack multiple times.
Age Acceleration
Another side effect of Giorno imbuing objects with life, being able to fast forward on their lifespan, and imbuing enough life into something can force something to grow until its lifespan is over, such as when he aged a tree to to the point of withering away.
Life Energy Sensing
Giorno is able to sense life energy in others, and has used this ability to discern if the stand user of Notorious B.I.G. is alive, detecting his life energy has vanished after Mista killed him. Giorno can turn a brooch on his suit into a sensor, being able to pinpoint its location due to being imbued with life energy. Giorno’s range on this ability even extends to sensing the life energy on an entire plane.
Cloning
A neat usage of life creation allows Giorno to produce clones from the DNA of objects with life. The most notable example of this is when he took the cells of Coco Jumbo, a mobile hideout (and turtle) and imbued them into a brooch, with the brooch turning into a clone of Coco Jumbo in the event of Bruno getting in any life-threatening danger.
Return to Zero
Through this ability, G.E.R. is capable of completely negating the actions and willpower of its target, preventing their actions from ever reaching any sort of conclusion and forcefully taking them back to the start no matter what. G.E.R. can do this manually, but it also acts as a passive defense mechanism for Giorno, immediately reverting any attack that may directly harm him before they have the chance to hit him.
Fate Manipulation
The effects of Golden Experience Requiem's Return to Zero are so powerful that they can prevent a predetermined future from occurring - not by directly altering the course of fate, but by reverting the courses of events that would lead up to it, never allowing that thing to reach its fated destiny.
Death Loop
The lethal application of the RTZ abilities listed above. Gold Experience Requiem is able to activate this death loop upon the target’s death, which returns “even death” to zero. This resets them right before their suffering stops and the target truly dies in an infinite number of ways, even resetting their “willpower” to zero and preventing willpower-based abilities like Diavolo’s stand King Crimson from being called upon.
Guardian Spirits
Special images by Time
Joker
Wild Card / Persona
Joker is one of the chosen few capable of using the power of the Wild Card, representing the infinite possibilities that Ren holds within himself and the bonds he shares with his Confidants. While most can only use the powers of their own inner selves to manifest a Persona, the Wild Card allows Joker to take in Shadows from the Sea of Souls and use any of them in combat, with them all taking the form of different masks while not summoned. The power of the Wild Card also grants him abilities to form contracts with those he’s formed bonds suited around the various arcana of tarot cards. Beyond the Confidant skills in the ability section, it allows him to call upon The World arcana and most importantly, the ability to defy fate. He’s used this on himself to defeat Yaldabaoth and change the destiny of both the other Phantom Thieves and random civilians in Chihaya’s confidant by simply giving advice.
To begin with a more thorough elaboration on what exactly a “Persona” is, they are first and foremost the Demons that exist within the soul, manifested as a mask. They are not merely subjective thoughtforms that in no way relate to the Gods and Demons they are derived from, but they are in fact the power of demons, and summoned directly from the Demon World / Sea of Souls. Personas are in no way inferior, and their dichotomy is acknowledged in universe as being merely a difference in summoning method. Personas and Demons both derive from the Archetypal Plane, and naturally attain the power and abilities from the myths and legends associated with them. They are the power of the soul / the psyche and the “other self” of the summoner that originates from the Collective Unconscious. Personas are also said to be identical to Shadows, which represent the negative side of humanity such their distorted desires. Personas and Shadows are beings outside the laws of physics and thus cannot be harmed by conventional weaponry.
With the power of the Wild Card, Joker can freely wield infinite personas in battle, and this power is also said to be capable of changing the fate of himself and his friends.
Arsène
Joker’s very own Persona, the representation of his ego, the “mask” he wears to face the world around him. Arsène is based on the character Arsène Lupin, the great gentleman thief created by Maurice Leblanc, a criminal who would primarily target other criminals and was renowned for being a master of disguise. Arsène possesses the Persona trait Pinch Anchor, which allows Joker to use skills that would normally only be available during ambushes right after a Baton Pass (meaning that this trait is completely useless in a 1v1 whoops), and can resist Curse spells, though using him leaves Joker vulnerable to Ice and Bless attacks.
Satanael
Fueled by the cheers of millions, Joker shattered the shackles that held back his true resolve. Arsène evolved into its ultimate state, the ultimate symbol of Rebellion: Satanael. The form that Satan himself possessed before his fall from Heaven, a being who rebelled against God in order to grant humanity free will and chaos. His Persona Trait is Pagan Allure, which increases the potency of magic attacks by 50%. Unique to him are the abilities Unshaken Will, which protects Joker from any and all forms of mental ailments, Tyrant’s Mind, which can increase the power of all attacks, and his signature move: Sinful Shell, a bullet crafted from the Seven Deadly Sins, with the power to slay even a God. With Satanael equipped, Joker also gains a Drain effect on all Element types.
By utilizing the power of the Collective Unconscious, Joker was able to summon Satanael, and became deified in the Sea of Hearts. As a being existing purely as a deity of the unconscious, it would exist as an Archetype, one of the countless Forms in Kadath Mandala that dictate reality. As an Archetype, Satanael would be among the entities that go beyond the domain of the ego and exist in a state of oneness that transcends the physical world, viewing it as pure illusion and a transient reality. Escaping the distinction of macrocosm and microcosm, and transcending the endless cycle of dependent origination. It is his own Ultimate Persona equal to Makoto and Yu’s attainment of the World Arcana, in which the Fool becomes a “godlike being” who is one with existence, and is likened to a perfect state that is whole and without contradiction. The answer to life itself.
(For more on Archetypes and how they relate to cosmology, see The Collective Unconscious in the Cosmology section)
Raoul
The true form of Joker’s Persona, a combination of Arsène and Satanael, theoretically his most powerful tool… And it was a DLC with no story significance. Thanks Atlus! Raoul’s Persona Trait is Hazy Presence, which increases the odds of Joker’s allies performing a Follow-Up attack (and is ALSO completely useless in a 1v1!), and possesses the signature move Phantom Show, which can force all enemies into falling asleep. He can completely nullify Curse attacks, but is still naturally weak to Bless attacks.
Giorno
Gold Experience
Giorno’s very own Stand, a manifestation of his spiritual energy that always… stands by his side. Gold Experience (or Golden Wind if you’re a coward) is the source of all of Giorno’s abilities, in addition to being an incredibly powerful force even outside of that. Gold Experience is a close-range Stand, with its reach being only a couple of meters, and though it lacks the same raw destructive power and precision that others like Star Platinum have, it makes up for that by being an incredibly fast Stand. Its speed, in combination with Giorno’s quick wit and their life-giving abilities, make them a great threat to anyone who stands in their way.
Gold Experience Requiem
AHHHHHHHH
Giorno’s most powerful tool and the main reason behind his infamy. Upon piercing Gold Experience with the Stand Arrow, Giorno can force it to evolve into a much greater state, known as Gold Experience Requiem. While Requiem still possesses the Life-Giver powers of its original form, it has a brand new power, known as Return to Zero. More information on Gold Experience Requiem and Return To Zero before the verdict
Resistances
Joker
Existence Erasure: Capable of surviving attacks such as Eiha, Kouha, and Megidolaon (see Curse Skills, Bless Skills, and Almighty Skills).
Willpower Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, and Possession: Immune to having his Will erased, can retain his Ego in domains where individuality do not exist, and is capable of still fighting and using Persona skills even when his mind has been taken away. Also able to resist his Persona actively fighting against him for control. (See Will of Rebellion)
Space-Time Manipulation, Time Stop, and Time Reversal: The ability to summon Persona gives him the power to adjust to worlds outside the normal laws of space-time, where the concept of time itself ceases to function. Is also shown being unaffected by time stop directly. (See Space-Time Manipulation). Should scale to the other protagonists who are unaffected by Chronos reversing time.
Reality Warping, Fate Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, and Existence Erasure: Capable of resisting the applications of Cognition utilized by Administrators of the Unconscious, with them being able to control the conceptual realm of the Sea of Hearts, completely rewrite reality, control fate, erase events in time, manipulate infinite possibilities, transmute possibilities into narratives, and erase individuals from reality to the point they and their actions never existed. (See Cognition and Will of Rebellion)
Absolute Zero, Radiation Manipulation, and Spatial Manipulation: Joker can endure Ice Skills, Nuke Skills, and Psy Skills, which are described as “incinerating” everything in the vicinity with nuclear radiation, freezing opponents to the point of atomic stasis, and mentally causing explosions in space. (See Ice Skills, Nuke Skills, and Psy Skills).
Fire Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, BFR, Curse Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, and Power Nullification: Has various ways to negate, absorb, or reflect all offensive elements, and can become immune to all mental ailments (See Attack-Type Resistances).
Transmutation and Memory Manipulation: Persona users can resist the influence of the Dark Hour, which transmogrifies humans into coffins, and causes memory deterioration.
Age Manipulation: Persona users with healing spells can undo the effects of Enervation, which ages someone until they are decrepit.
Giorno
Diseases: After injecting himself with the blood of a snake immune to Purple Haze, Giorno developed an immunity against the flesh eating virus.
Feats
Joker
Overall
Founded the Phantom Thieves of Hearts
Stole the hearts of over a dozen wicked people
Killed several gods with the power of friendship
Crashed The Game Awards 2018 by successfully infiltrating Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
Got like 10 girlfriends goddamn
Survived getting beaten by 10 girlfriends goddamn
Power
Destroyed Yaldabaoth with Sinful Shell (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
While massively weakened and lacking his wildcard ability, he was still capable of defeating Salmael, a being stated to be even older and more primal to the unconscious than Yaldabaoth. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Said to be the strongest presence she ever felt by Fuuka, who also sensed the battle between Makoto and Nyx in the Sea of Souls. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Capable of fighting against Adam Kadmon, who is the “Archetype of Humanity” and a “Copy of God”. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Speed
Can dodge light spells (Relativistic to Speed of Light)
Able to dodge Lucifer’s Morning Star (170 million c)
Can dodge Big Bang Challenge, a Universe spanning explosion (At least 1.47 quintillion c, potentially Infinite)
Durability
Endures the full force of a punch from Adam Kadmon (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Withstood Okumura’s Big Bang Challenge (At least Universe level)
Giorno
Overall
Tricked Polpo into shooting himself by turning his gun into a banana (A gorilla’s worst nightmare)
Beat and earned the respect of Bruno Bucciarati, joining the Passione Gang
Helped Fugo defeat Illuso and the Man in the Mirror, and later found an antidote for Fugo’s stand, Purple Haze
Defeated Baby Face, Ghiaccio, Ciocolatta, and Green Day
Unlocked the power of Gold Experience Requiem by obtaining the stand arrow
Defeated Diavolo, sealing him into a death loop where he must return to the point of life right before death before being killed again
Became Passione’s Boss in a single week
Power
Giorno claims Gold Experience can easily break a man's arm
Damaged Black Sabbath, who took down Echoes Act 3
Erects a building sized tree from the ground in time record.
Gold Experience throws 10 cars high up in the air.
Cracks the armor of Ghiaccio’s stand
Claims the roots GE creates can crack stone
One of GE’s trees was strong enough to damage a helicopter and stop it from flying away.
While on top of a building, beat up Cioccolata badly across 7 FUCKING PAGES, sending him flying into a garbage truck.
Gold Experience’s Requiem beam was able to pierce through Diavolo’s hand and had the power to destroy a building
Speed
Gold Experience was able to hit several cars in a matter of seconds.
Anime has GE react to them falling, making the feat a lot more impressive.
Transmuted one of Mista’s bullets right in time to turn it into a tree.
Transmuted a bullet before it could penetrate Mista’s skull after hitting his head.
Gold Experience Requiem’s beam blitzed Diavolo’s super-speed reactions.
Gold Experience Requiem is able to interact within Diavolo’s time skip. (Debatable)
Durability
Can endure direct hits from Stands like Sticky Fingers
Pretty much fine after jumping out of a cable car and breaking a window in the process.
Tanks a punch from Bruno Bucciarati, who could dent the window of a train without Sticky Fingers
Unfazed from a car crash that left the vehicle totaled
Scaling
Images by Yultehdoof.
Joker
The Phantom Thieves
“We are the Phantom Thieves, here to take your bride!”
As the leader of the Phantom Thieves, Joker has been shown to be on par and with his best Personas, surpassing the strength of his comrades within his team. As a result, he should scale to any feat done by any of the other Phantom Thieves.
Sophie moves fast enough to intercept a laser aimed at Joker
All of the Phantom Thieves working together could hold off a punch from Adam Kadmon (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
The Investigation Team
“Thousands die but tens of thousands are born in their place! This is truth!”
Within Q2, the Phantom Thieves showed showings on par with the Investigation Team at their best, meaning it’s fairly logical to scale Joker to most feats performed by them.
Defeated Ameno-Sagiri and saved the world from being enveloped in fog
Saw the truth and uncovered Izanami as the mastermind behind everything, and defeated her
Working together, Yu Narukami and Adachi defeated Hi-No-Kagutsuchi and saved the world from destruction. Hi-No-Kagatsuchi was a being of comparable status to Nyx that was going to destroy the Sea of Souls. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
S.E.E.S
Having fought against SEES during their exploits in the Abyss of Time; far after they fought Nyx and around when they fought Erebus, Joker would scale to almost everything most members of SEES could pull off. Though it was a cognitive version in The Abyss, this Joker was formed by the public’s perception of him, meaning what the real Joker could actually do isn’t far off; especially with Satanael who’s also powered by the public.
All S.E.E.S. members tank Aigis’ Antimatter Cannon, which “Generates annihilation between atoms”
Makoto Yuki with the Universe Arcana traveled from the Physical World all the way to the deepest depths of the Sea of Hearts. Was also capable of dodging Nyx’s Death attack. (Immeasurable)
When Makoto found his “Answer to life” he was able to seal Nyx in the Sea of Souls with his life essence. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
S.E.E.S is stated to not be inferior to the cast of Persona 2.
They can fight Erebus in the Sea of Souls. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Metaverse Denizens
Joker has defeated several powerful Metaverse denizens, including all the Velvet Room attendants, the various Shadows within the Palaces and Jails he has conquered, Yaldabaoth, Salmael, Enlil and of course, Takuto Maruki. He should, by extension, scale to any feats done by these characters.
Basic earth spells used by Personas and Demons can cause magnitude 7 Earthquakes.
Yaldabaoth merged the entirety of the Sea of Hearts with the Physical World. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
Yaldabaoth seized control of the Velvet Room and plunged it into the depths of Mementos (Immeasurable in speed, and 5-D in power)
Enlil created infinite realms within the Collective Unconscious (Multiversal+)
Shadow Okumura can initiate Big Bang Burger which is a cosmic flare that encompasses a nebula
Elizabeth halted Erebus with a finger, whose roars could shake the Sea of Souls from its deepest depths. (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
The Archetypal beings of The Collective Unconscious precede time and space, and transcend it entirely, existing in a state which unites past, present, and future. (Immeasurable)
Nyarlathotep pulls Kandori across time and space to the Sea of Souls. (Immeasurable)
The Archetypes in Kadath Mandala exist in a state of oneness and view the physical world as an illusion which they transcend. (At least 6-D, potentially far higher)
Azathoth is the God of Thought and the Center of the Cosmos / Monad Mandala (At least 7-D, potentially far higher)
The Velvet Attendants live beyond time. (Immeasurable)
Personas/Demons (Debatable, See Before Verdicts)
The spiritual manifestations of figures Joker collects throughout the games, these guys come in a variety of forms across MegaTen history. Shadows, demons, personas, all which Joker can face and fight with. This is supported through some lines like Mada’s when they are fused in the velvet room and the level cap which the protags are overwhelmed with the power their personas hold until they become strong enough. Their compendium statements are… something.
King Frost can freeze the earth (Planet level)
Mada can swallow the universe and all of the gods in a single gulp, and has “a well of infinite power” he bestows upon Joker (At least Universe level, potentially far higher for power, at least 1.47 quintillion c, potentially Infinite to Immeasurable for speed)
Vishnu can cross creation in 3 steps (At least Massively FTL+, potentially Infinite)
Alice drifted through time and space, forcing Belial and Nebiros to chase her through time (Immeasurable)
Kohryu has the power to move all creation (At least Universe level, potentially far higher)
Vishnu created and maintains the universes (Universe level)
Giorno
Team Bucciarati
Giorno’s shown on multiple occasions being on par with the rest of his team in power, making it fairly reasonable to scale him to anything the rest of Team Bucciarati can pull off.
By its very nature, Sex Pistols can keep up with bullets, and kick them with the same force as a gunshot
Bruno knocked out Pesci and broke the train window in the process
Sticky Fingers was fast enough to tag King Crimson a few times and strong enough to hurt him with his strikes
Sex Pistols were able to intercept an attack before Sticky Fingers was able to attack first
Other JoJos
Being one of the main Jojo’s in the series, it’s no surprise that Giorno should compare to the other main protagonists throughout the other Jojo parts. Gold Experience is consistently able to scale to stands from other parts such as Echoes and Silver Chariot, through scaling to King Crimson and Black Sabbath. With Gold Experience Requiem, it boasts the highest offensive power shown in the series up to that point, putting it above even stands such as Star Platinum and the World.
Jonathan’s body was able to survive an exploding ship (0.4 - 0.7 tons of TNT)
Joseph was fast enough to dodge a laser from the Red Stone of Aja (2.324c)
Star Platinum was able to break across High Priestess’ teeth.
Stone Free punches a couple of meteors and is stated to have a destructive power equivalent to that of a small but incredibly fast moving meteor (556 Tons of TNT - 1 Kiloton of TNT)
JoFoes
Diavolo, the JoFoe of part 5, admitted that Gold Experience on its own had incredible attack power, who can keep up with various members of Stardust Crusaders such as Polnareff. Polnareff has also kept up with Jotaro/Star Platinum, who has fought DIO/The World and Kira/Killer Queen, so Giorno and Gold Experience should be somewhat comparable to most of the past JoFoes.
Kars was fast enough to block Stroheim’s UV Blast (25c)
Dio’s Space Ripper Stingy Eyes are able to split apart a cloud (32.5 Tons of TNT)
Diavolo was able to blitz Polnareff with no issue. (See the section below)
King Crimson was able to react to Sex Pistols’ bullets.
Misc. Stand Users
“No one can just deflect the emerald splash!”
Gold Experience Requiem is stated to have the highest offensive power of any stand in the series shown prior, and through scaling to the likes of Sticky Fingers and King Crimson in speed even in a weaker state, Giorno at his peak should easily upscale through the feats of various other stand users in the series.
Polnareff can:
Cut clean through stone statues
Deflect multiple rays of light from the Sun with Silver Chariot (76 c)
Tagged the Hanged Man at point-blank range and intercept its movements as a beam (225c)
Red Hot Chili Pepper can move through electrical wires at the speed of light
Red Hot Chili Pepper can absorb all of Morioh’s electricity and use it to power itself (8.13 tons of TNT, see Before the Verdicts)
Okuyasu with The Hand warped a metal transmission tower with its punches and even shook the tower
The Sun heats up air for over a 100 meter radius (8.29 tons of TNT, see Before the Verdicts)
Spice Girls has ‘excellent attack power’ and destroyed a plane with one punch
Dark Blue Moon can create a large whirlpool (6.31 Tons of TNT)
Justice created fog that spanned an entire town, even covering a small part of a mountain (7.52 Tons of TNT)
Weaknesses
Joker
Even the mightiest of leaders have weaknesses, and Joker is no exception. While he has a vast amount of Personas at his disposal, he can only use one at a time. If one is damaged enough, it can enter Persona Break, rendering it useless for some time. He also has a limited amount of ammunition with his guns, and has limited amounts of health and SP to fuel his attacks. Though he can cope with the latter via healing items, it is still an issue.
Giorno
As with every stand user, every attack taken to Gold Experience will be reflected on Giorno. For instance, if the stand lost a hand, Giorno would lose a hand, and his fighting range is close-ranged, not really being able to capitalize on fighting an opponent with a significant range advantage. His abilities involving creating life and healing also require precision, and for Giorno to touch an object with GE to generate life.
As for Gold Experience Requiem, its biggest weakness is…lack of media literacy. We’ll talk about it later.
Before The Verdicts
Joker
Why are the earlier Persona games, SMT If, and Devil Summoner being included?
A debated matter within Persona scaling has always been the validity of scaling the older games to the newer ones, and scaling them to other Megaten games. However, a lot of these matters are due to misconceptions, which this section will address.
First of all, a common argument against scaling is that the events of Innocent Sin retconned the first 2 games from happening, meaning any scaling is invalid. This is fairly blatantly false: Eternal Punishment shows the new timeline created within Innocent Sin, and the first game still happened, as well as Eternal Punishment itself. The only game retconned was Innocent Sin itself, but Tatsuya’s presence within Eternal Punishment would still afford any scaling from that game, rendering the point moot.
However, this leads into the larger misconception that all the Persona games after the 2 duology take place within an alternate universe from the first 3 games, as they don’t acknowledge a lot of the characters from those games. This is also untrue. First of all, there has never been any evidence in support of this claim, and in fact, Atlus themselves state the contrary as per this interview, and later on once more say that all Persona titles (not just P3 and P4) share the same universe. While some may point to the Hermit link in 3 as proof of this, you’d be mistaken. In the Japanese version of P3, the MMO is actually titled “Digital Devil Story”, in reference to the series of novels from which the Megami Tensei series derive from; Innocent Sin Online is a creation of the localization due to Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment’s release in America as opposed to the DDS novels, which were never translated into english. “Innocent Sin Online” is not the canonical name of the MMO, and as such can be ignored. However, there is a plethora of evidence suggesting that they are connected.
First of all, the Kirijo Family is directly stated to be a splinter group derived from the Nanjo Group, a key organization during the first two games. This is fairly obviously a direct link, referencing the important figures from the previous games, but there are other such in-universe references to the original two games, with Katsuya, a major character in the P2 duology, being described during the events of P5. Supplementary statements from guides also further strengthen the connections, with it being said that the connections to Persona 1 and 2 were maintained in the remake of Persona 3. The Persona 3 Club Book goes on to state that the original cast of Persona 2 still do exist in P3, however they do not contribute directly to the story because their presence simply wasn’t necessary. Igor and Elizabeth also take a moment to break the fourth wall within the club book’s QnA section, and further elaborate on how Persona 3 connects to the previous games. Within their statements, Igor refers to Philemon directly, stating that one could interpret the butterfly seen at the beginning of the game as Philemon’s manifestation, even going as far as to say it’s possible he was watching over the events of Persona 3, with Igor citing his master’s existence across all time and space making it possible. The existence of Philemon and previous Velvet Room attendants such as Nameless and Belladonna is something that is repeated in both official in-universe novels, and guidebook statements. Philemon is still very much present, he simply does not appear directly, though there has been the occasional cameo, such as the final game over screen in Persona Q2 harkening back to Persona 2.
Another major in-game reference to the original Persona titles comes in the form of Strega, who are confirmed to be artificial Persona Summoners created by the Kirijo Group as part of an ongoing experiment in the club book, and in game. This is a callback to a plot point in Persona 2 Eternal Punishment, with a group known as the NWO experimenting on people in an attempt to transform them into summoners themselves. The experiments even fail in the same fashion, with artificial summoners in both P3 and P2 being shown to devolve into Shadows/Demons.
With that out of the way, there’s still the other games in question - and these are a lot simpler. A minor character within the first two Persona games is Tamaki Uchida, the protagonist of Shin Megami Tensei: If… She straight up says she has experience with demon negotiation and gives you her rapier to help you fight within the events of Persona 1, further proving the connection. With this in mind, If… is pretty obviously canon to Persona, making it a fair scaling chain to any feats within there. However the connections do not end here. Within the events of Persona 2, Tamaki is stated to be a “Devil Summoner” working for the Kuzunoha Detective Agency (Yes, that one). Her boss, Chief Todoroki, is also stated to do “Devil Summoning work”. However even more interestingly, throughout the events of Persona 2, he alludes to his current body not being his own. In the Persona World Guidance book, it is confirmed that he is actually possessed by the spirit of Kyouji Kuzunoha, a major character from the Devil Summoner series. The Raidou games, as part of the Devil Summoner lineage and starring a previous member of the Kuzunoha family would undoubtedly be canon to Persona as well. The prequel novel also has Kyouji Kuzunoha the First, the ancestor to the one from Devil Summoner, confirming the two are connected - Soul Hackers even has Raidou and Kyouji as bosses within it, further strengthening this.
Now, a common misconception is that the Innocent Sin ending overwrote Persona’s connections with these games, but it did not. You can still go to the Kuzunoha detective agency within the events of Eternal Punishment, and Tamaki is still there, as is Todoroki. It also doesn’t really make logical sense for the Innocent Sin ending to have done that in the first place; the sole events that were overwritten were the Masked Circle meeting each other, causing any events relating to them to be changed. If… and Devil Summoner are completely unconnected to these events, so them being retconned wouldn’t make any sense.
With all this in mind, including the first three Persona games, If…, the three Devil Summoner games, and Soul Hackers should be fine for any Persona debate, as all these games occur within the same general timeline and interact with each other.
Persona Cosmology (uh oh)
Yes, we know, but please hear us out.
Within multiple Persona debates in the community, there have been talks about how truly big the cosmology is, particularly without relying on wider Megami Tensei media. While not entirely relevant to deciding the victor of this matchup, we felt it was ultimately best to share our findings and thoughts of the grand cosmology of the Persona series using material within its own subseries separate from external Megami Tensei media, for others to gain a better understanding of it.
The Transient World (Physical Reality)
To begin with the simplest point to establish in the wider cosmology, there are a few statements and implications for the universe being infinite in size and scale in general. This is first alluded to when a fortune teller sees “The Void” in the future of Makoto/Kotone’s fortune, and states it represents “nothingness” being “infinite, as is the universe”. This is further reinforced when it is stated that there exists “infinite masses” connected by the Collective Unconscious, and again when there are infinite souls trapped in Enlil’s labyrinth.
We also know for a fact that there exists alternate timelines parallel to the main universe, such as the original Shin Megami Tensei timeline, the original timeline prior to Eternal Punishment, and the alternate timeline of Raidou Kuzunoha XIV. There’s even mentions and proof of the many worlds theory and the existence of many alternate realities with different "you's" that exist, with the future diverging into infinite possibilities and timelines. As such, the physical reality should house an infinite number of parallel timelines, or Multiversal+, or Infinite 4-D.
Perhaps another important facet to establish regarding the structure of the world before we continue, is the nature of cognition and how it makes up the physical universe. All the way back in Persona 2, we are introduced to the concept of “rumors”, which are said to be capable of altering reality itself due to their nature being “incarnations of the Collective Unconscious”. In fact, according to Philemon, all souls have within them the power that birthed the universe, and strong souls with powerful wills such as those of Tatsuya and his friends can create a new reality by envisioning it. This is augmented further when it is stated that the world itself is a product of Cognition, and is able to be “freely remade” should the infinite potential of the soul be actualized.
With the fundamentals established, we shall later further elaborate on how Cognition plays into the wider cosmology and its consequences, so keep it in mind for now.
The Velvet Room
Beneath the Unconscious but at the Edge of Consciousness somewhere between both is the Velvet Room, an infinitely large plane (often being much larger than it actually appears) that resides between mind and matter, dreams and reality. It is an “extradimensional place” that is one step removed from the Sea of Hearts that resides beyond all time and space, operates on different laws of cause and effect, and from it one can access all alternate timelines, and parallel worlds. It can even be accessed from realms like Kadath Mandala. Also of note is the fact that spiritual worlds such as the one created by Maki’s mind, are also said to reside on another axis of time. It is said to be a place that occupies a state of quantum nonexistence, and only assumes a definite form when observed by the Wild Card for the first time (Which is shown directly in Persona 3 Portable, when Makoto/Kotone are asked to envision the image of their attendant). The worlds beyond it (such as Kadath Mandala, which cannot be entered from the Velvet Room normally) are said to reside in a state of greater abstraction.
This is a shorter section, but gives us an idea. The Velvet Room is considered an extra dimensional plane of existence beyond all of time and space, and is an infinite realm that connects to all alternate timelines in the Persona multiverse. As such, in order to be big enough that it contains and connects to an infinite set of 4th dimensional space time continuums, it must be, by necessity, a greater set of infinity, or 5-D.
The Collective Unconscious
The Collective Unconscious is divided into multiple “abysses” or planes of depth. These planes are referred to as “Mandalas”, fundamental patterns of the soul which are omnipresent across the unconscious.
The Collective Unconscious as a whole is said to be a sea of nothingness, a conceptual space that lacks a fixed form, transcending all time and space, uniting past, present, and future, and is devoid of directions. It predates the corporeal world, existing far before life as a concept ever had meaning. It is infinitely vast, and encompasses all timelines. We gain a bit more regarding its literal scale via the “Akashic Records” that Enlil possesses, which she utilized via the Collective Unconscious to manifest an infinite amount of possibilities and memories to create her cinema labyrinth. These “movies” in the labyrinth all exist as literal stories that the characters can enter and interact with.
Now regarding the role of Cognition in the wider cosmology, to build upon what was established in the section on the physical world, Maruki further elaborates on the way in which there isn’t simply one world generated by human cognition, but in actuality many individual worlds belonging to each human. This is repeated in guidebooks as well. The Sea of Hearts is said to contain all these countless views that populate the many depths of its realm. This all comes to a head in the shallower plane of the Unconscious, which is called “Kadath Mandala”. It is described as a plane where the Archetypes of all gods and demons slumber. These fundamental essences are Archetypes in the true sense of the word, described as the patterns which serve as the foundation for the Mind and Reality as a whole, and there exists an infinite number of them. Mind and Psyche in the context of Persona is also of course referring to soul. There also naturally exists Archetypes for Individuals, as every soul finds its origin in the Sea of Souls, and Personas are furthermore stated to be your “other self” that exists in the Collective Unconscious. This fact of the cosmology even makes one able to summon another human as their Persona.
However, the notion of the “true self” goes even deeper. The Buddha himself is a being that has ascended to Kadath Mandala, and in his interaction he describes the physical universe as “maya” or illusion, holding it as a transient world bound to dependent origination (the endless chain of cause and effect), which only exists as a product of the “ego” (A concept which the Megami Tensei at large series often invokes). The notion of the universe being “transient” is also alluded to by others in Kadath, and Edogawa further elaborates on how the “ego” is only “you” in the conscious sense, and it does not extend to the Collective Unconscious, with the latter being the foundation for the mind itself. The “mind” as we know it is merely an infinitesimal consciousness encompassed by the Collective Unconscious. In the Persona World Guidance book these are related to the Japanese concept of “Kotodama”, which holds that the universe is merely a product of speech and perception. Kadath is a plane where Microcosm (The Universe) and Macrocosm (The Self) are said to be unified, and it is for this reason that Umr-At-Tawil exists in order to give the physical world distinct identities that can exist apart from each other. From the Collective Unconscious individuals emerge, forming the aspects of the mind that “binds” the world within to the world without.
These aspects regarding the ego, its separation from the true self, and the physical world being bound by its existence, is also once more harkened back to by Philemon stating that within the Soul (Self) exists the power that birthed the universe. Umr-At-Tawil being the boundary that creates distinction beneath the unconscious is also juxtaposed with its true self as Yog-Sothoth being the “All-in-One and One-in-All”. The fact that the individual ego cannot exist in the Collective Unconscious is even called out directly, as the people who enter and retain their individuality are noted to be a great rarity, and should one enter unprepared they’ll dissolve. However, this cosmic union is also described not as a “death” but as transcendence, in which one recognizes the true self as one with the whole of existence, and escapes the cycle of dependent origination entirely.
The Discovery of the True Self and its cosmic implications correspond to a concept (which we shall call “Individuation” due to the Jungian concept), which is described many times as a thing of thematic and narrative importance throughout the series. Philemon himself affirms the above statements, with him stating his wish for humanity to attain perfection in a state of oneness that transcends the contradictions binding them to the physical world. This is also connected into the concepts of the Qabalah and the Tarot, with Edogawa presenting the Tree of Life as the Source and the Destination of the Soul on its ascent to God, with the 22 Atu of the Tarot corresponding to the paths of the Tree. The Tarot itself is the pattern of the soul, and final Atu known as “The World” or “The Universe” is described as the stage in which the Fool becomes a godlike being becoming one with existence. Edogawa also chimes in again to tie in these occult concepts to Jungian Psychology, and describes how he uses the concept of Alchemy to illustrate the union of opposites to create a whole entity. Those who attain The World are said to have “found their answer to life”, and Elizabeth describes this process as being the potential of all humanity to ascend and master their identity. The purpose of the Velvet Room is said to tie into this concept, as it exists to allow Man and the Collective Unconscious to reach their next stage of evolution. All in all, the physical world is an illusion generated by the Ego, which exists to be transcended and risen above as one attains their true Self, which is one with existence and beyond distinction.
Above Kadath Mandala, Philemon and Nyarlathotep dwell, embodying the two halves of the Collective Unconscious, representing both its aspects of creation and destruction respectively. They are the origin of all souls, the rulers of the ego and all unconscious actions, existing across all time and space, and dwell within the deepest depths of the Sea of Hearts. The fundamental Mandala where Philemon and Nyarlathotep are said to reside is called Monad Mandala.
The absolute height of cosmology is an emptiness known as the “Pleroma”. Within the black book and red book that contains all of Philemon’s Knowledge, and the “inner workings of the human soul”, the “Pleroma” is spoken of as a “Nothingness” and “Fullness” where thinking and being cease, in a state that transcends quality and essence.
Ultimately, the Collective Unconscious is an infinite plane containing infinite archetypes and infinite worlds that resides in an even deeper space than the Velvet Room. We know explicitly that Kadath Mandala resides in a space the Velvet Room cannot reach or connect to. As the Velvet Room is a 5th dimensional space, Kadath Mandala would, by necessity, have to be a 6-D space. And finally, due to Monad Mandala residing in an even deeper space than Kadath Mandala, it would similarly transcend that space and be 7-D.
There are however, higher end arguments that can be made quite easily. To prevent this section from becoming more bloated, we decided to address the higher ends in a separate document that you can read here. Check it out if you’re curious!
How does Joker scale to the cosmology?
This section should be quite simple to go over. Essentially, Yaldabaoth during the events of Persona 5 is said to have merged the physical world with the Mementos, which is referred to as Sea of Hearts and several times as the Collective Unconscious, giving him a way of scaling directly. As for other such feats he could scale to, there is the fact that Elizabeth in her fight with Erebus threatened to damage the Sea of Hearts from its deepest depths (and Erebus was able to shake the entire space with its roar). He is able to fight Lavenza, who should at least be comparable though a bit weaker than the other Velvet Attendants, and there is also the fact that his cognitive copy in the Abyss of Time is stated to be stronger than “anything they had seen thus far” by Fuuka, who by this time had sensed the fight between Makoto and True Nyx. Joker was also considered a challenging fight for SEES around the same period they could defeat Erebus in the Sea of Hearts. Thus, he should scale to the higher end of the cosmology pretty easily, namely to Monad Mandala.
Joker has Fate Manipulation?
A fairly simple question, although it is important to answer. Joker was capable of defying the predictions of Chihaya, including his own death, with said divinations being known to be absolute and unchangeable. When Maruki alters reality via cognition he changes the world entirely, yet in spite of this Joker retains his memories of the previous world, a notable feat as it was previously considered an impossibility (notably by Tatsuya who caused a paradox for retaining his memories of his old universe). Even in the ending where Joker allows Maruki to “win”, it is stated that he and Akechi attain their awareness and know of the interference that continues on. His will of rebellion allows him through sheer will to resist Salmael’s cogs of fate. And finally, narratively Joker’s entire point of being as a character is principled on his ability to defy fate and fight back against a corrupt system that stacked the deck against him. It makes perfect sense narratively that such power would be afforded to him considering the evidence shown, and it fits perfectly with the story itself.
Compendium Statements
This should be a relatively simple thing to address. Personas summoned are stated directly to inherit all the powers and abilities of their mythological archetype. Whenever Personas such as Mada are summoned, they essentially restate the lore of their compendium entry as the power they bestow upon the protagonist. Compendium statements and other such things are thus completely fine to use, as the Persona is intended to utilize said power canonically.
Does Joker have the Omnipotent Orb? (On NG+ in general)
Omnipotent Orb and other such items gained via NG+ should be fair to use, given that NG+ adds new content which is still canonical to the game’s story (Which things such as the Omnipotent Orb are gained through).
Source?
For the convenience of those wondering about the guidebooks and other supplements used in the blog, here is a comprehensive list. Anything not mentioned is either an in-game statement (such as the Tatsuya Scenario Statements), or from easily accessible sources such as the Anime.
Persona World Guidance (This one) (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Shin Megami Tensei Series 25th anniversary Memorial Book MEGATENMANIACS (Cover) (1)
Persona Official Guide Book (The Japanese one with this cover) (1)
Digital Devil Story Trading Card Game (Full archive of cards here) (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)
Megami Ibunroku Persona (Manga) (1, 2)
Persona 4 Arena Ultimax (Manga) (1, 2)
Persona 2 Innocent Sin Official Perfect Guide (This one) (1, 2)
Persona 3 Portable: Velvet Blue (1, 2, 3, 4)
Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (Novel) (1)
Catherine: Full Body Official Visual & Scenario Collection ♀VENUS☆TRINITY♂ (Cover) (1)
Catherine Visual & Scenario Collection ♀Venus☆Mode♂ (Cover) (1)
Araki Hirohiko x Kaneko Kazuma Interview (THRILL 09/2001) (1)
Persona 2 Sin Official Guidebook Complete Edition (The one with this cover) (1, 2)
Digital Devil Story 10th Anniversary Material Collection (Cover) (1)
Giorno
The Space Ripper Stingy Eyes Feat
Ever since Dio vs Alucard released in 2021, the space ripper stingy eyes have been a hot topic when it comes to JoJo powerscaling. It is worth acknowledging that the episode's power output of it is much higher than the calculations for it in other blogs, with the gap being 10.6 Megatons of TNT to 32.5 Tons of TNT, a significant jump between city level and city block level. Whatever end you do believe in its overall power, we instead wanted to talk about the actual arguments involved for it being applied to scaling, as there are arguments for and against using it.
The first argument that would go against using the SRSE is that it cuts through everything like butter in its portrayal, going right through Jonathan’s forearm, and therefore it shouldn’t scale to anyone since it would be a piercing attack that we see go through people whenever it’s used. It also managed to barely graze Joseph’s throat had he not dodged in time, and later went through Joseph and Straizo again, thus arguing it would be a piercing attack and nothing more, so no one should scale to it.
To argue against this would mean arguing that by nature, piercing damage is deadlier than blunt damage, and that there has to be some power behind it beyond just being a piercing attack, given Dio’s eyes would need to be powerful enough to launch pressurized fluid. The other times we see it in use are when Straizo used it on Joseph, who redirected the beams with hamon cups. Hamon energy increases physical abilities, thus it could be argued that Joseph would be able to scale to it in some regard as a result.
Did Red Hot Chili Pepper absorb all of Morioh’s electricity?
In Diamond is Unbreakable, one of the enemy stands known as Red Hot Chili Pepper has a feat where it channels all the electricity of Morioh into itself. The highest end for this absorption feat we’ve seen reached 427.3 kilotons of TNT, but there are issues with this; the calculation here used the method of how much electricity the town would go through annually, but at the time, RHCP was only absorbing the amount of electricity currently in the town, and was not absorbing the kWh (kilowatt-hour) that would make up an entire years worth of electricity consumption. If one were to assume RHCP only absorbed about 10 minutes worth of electricity (which contextually would work the best), it means RHCP only absorbed a total necessary amount of energy equalling 8.13 tons of TNT, which is far more consistent with the actual series’ feats.
Here Comes The Sun
The Sun has a feat where it heats up the air, which would get to 8.29 Tons of TNT, or Large Building Level. Obviously, it's less clear if the Stardust Crusaders would really scale to it since they didn’t directly fight it, but given GER’s stats about being the strongest stand up to part 5, it shouldn’t really matter to Giorno as far as scaling to it. Speaking of GER…
What IS Gold Experience Requiem, exactly?
Gold Experience Requiem is by far the most complex stand in the entirety of JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, and its reputation in powerscaling is one few characters can match. It has a couple of interesting abilities that are well beyond your typical shooting fire or even stopping time, and countless debates, threads, and discussion have been started over this stand ever since its creation, which has led to many interpretations and even misconceptions about what the stand is and what it does. While the abilities were summarized in the abilities section, we decided that a section would be needed to talk about the stand’s powers in a more in-depth manner to really lay out everything on the table. Real quick, special thanks to Timefreezer4 for compiling virtually all of the information for Gold Experience Requiem presented below.
Definition of Return to Zero
First of all, the biggest question regarding GER and Return to Zero has been what Return to Zero itself can do, and how it works. Starting with the official VIZ Media translation of GER’s ability reads:
Return to Zero is an undo button that resets any action to zero, almost as if it never happened. The phrasing “when attacked by an enemy” likely refers to any action taken to the user, Giorno. The original manga supports this notion, by saying “Returns all of the attacking opponent's movements and willpower to "zero".” The relevant kanji is 動作 , which translates to, “action, movements, motions, behavior, operation, etc.” Even in the original text, the wording is broad and leaves much room for interpretation on what “action” exactly means.
The second aspect of Return to Zero mentioned is its ability to zero out the strength of will of an opponent, which will also be reset to zero. The kanji used to describe willpower is 意志, which translates directly to “will, intent, or determination.” In a general sense, the word ‘willpower’ means the ability to control yourself, behavior, thoughts, and actions as well as the ability to resist something with great strain and exertion over impulse. Now what happens when this is returned to zero? In JOJO-A-GO!GO!, Gold Experience Requiem’s ability is described as nullifying all movements and will of the attacker. The kanji to describe movement is 動作, the same as in its official Stand description from the manga. Thus, it is still a broad definition that means, “action, movements, motions, behavior, operation, etc.”
What Did Return to Zero do in JoJo?
In the manga, Gold Experience Requiem first uses Return to Zero right as Diavolo is about to strike Giorno in erased time, after which the entirety of King Crimson’s erased time and everyone’s positions reset to right before the ability was activated. Everything about the time erasure rewinds, from the blood Diavolo sprayed onto Giorno’s face, the bullets Mista fired, the Boss’ position relative to Giorno’s, and even the background cracking apart used to indicate King Crimson’s ability is active. It’s also probable GER used it a second time during the time erasure, as Diavolo tried and failed to strike Giorno once more before everything fully negated. So at the very least, Diavolo attacking and his time erasure count as “actions” for the sake of Return to Zero as an ability. Worth noting as well is the fact that RtZ prevented Epitaph’s typically infallible prediction of Diavolo donuting Giorno from ever occurring, effectively changing Giorno’s fate outright. However, Epitaph’s prediction itself is an action GER is not reverting.
It is worth mentioning, however, that Diavolo was able to spurt blood into Giorno’s face, and it wasn’t reversed until after he tried to make an attack. This, combined with GER’s descriptions consistently reading that it turns an attacker’s actions to zero, may imply that GER only reverts hostile actions specifically. However, GER monologues to Diavolo, in which it states, “This is truth. What you’re seeing now is the truth. Your ability shows you events that will in fact occur. However, as real as the truth may be, you will never reach it. No matter who you are or what abilities you have, you will never get past me to arrive there.” GER saying no ability or person whatsoever can get past it to arrive at the “truth” could contradict this idea.
The anime’s adaptation of Return to Zero countering the time erasure is quite faithful to the manga, just adding visual clarity to exactly what occurs. The same reversal of Diavolo’s attacks and everything that changed within the time erasure is still present. Gold Experience Requiem’s quote of its own ability words slightly differently, now reading, “What you’re seeing is indeed the truth. You are seeing the movements created by your abilities, but you will never arrive at the truth that is going to happen. None who stand before me shall ever get there, regardless of their abilities. This is the power of Gold [Experience] Requiem.” This clarifies more specifically that GER’s words are specifically describing Return to Zero and Diavolo’s powerlessness against it.
Overall, going over the demonstration of Return to Zero is to support the idea of what an ‘action’ entails, which seems to primarily be any hostile action towards Giorno himself, since the blood throwing Epitaph’s future sight weren’t instantly reverted until King Crimson went in for the kill, showing that Return to Zero is primarily a defensive power that causes any harm to Giorno or GER in a fight, though it is worth nothing that the “actions of the attacker” does not specifically require action be interpreted as purely attacks, and GER does affect things unrelated to attacks with Return to Zero, such as willpower and death.
Is Return to Zero Infinite Speed?
To answer this, it is worth going over the exact abilities of Diavolo’s stand, King Crimson, as this is where Return to Zero happened, in the final fight of Golden Wind against the time-erasing stand. So how does it work? In VIZ Media’s official translation, King Crimson is described as followed:
The direct Japanese translations are quite infamous for how much confusion they can cause about how King Crimson works, but the text describes the power as erasing a few seconds of time, leaving only Diavolo actively aware of his surroundings and able to decide his positioning with that erased time. The kanji involved in “erase” is 消し, which does not directly translate on RomajiDesu, but is often part of words that mean “eraser, cancellation, or extinguish”. Interestingly, a very similar kanji 消す does directly translate to “erase, cancel out, or delete”. More concretely, 時間 directly translates to time or hours.
Either way, the mechanics of the time erase should be actually destroying a period of 10 seconds in which only Diavolo is conscious of his actions. This effectively means Diavolo creates timeless voids every time he uses his ability, and thus determining whether Return to Zero activated during or after the time erasure is essential to determining GER’s reaction speed, or the speed of Return to Zero itself, as it determines whether or not the power works without time as a factor. Since Diavolo cannot directly harm targets in his own time erasure, it had to be close to this border in order for King Crimson’s attack to make any sense.
In the manga, the primary visual queue for King Crimson’s time erasure is the background cracking apart into an empty, black void. Upon ending, the background will return in full, and characters show their reactions to the time erasure. King Crimson’s erased time being a dark void is consistent in the manga, and there’s no transition to the background’s return upon the ability’s end. Looking at the paneling for Diavolo striking Giorno when Return to Zero activates, we see a dark void, except Giorno is illuminating a brighter light that pierces the blackness. JoJo tends to be consistent with its detailed background work, so the lack of the streets of Rome during these panels should imply the time erase is still active when RtZ begins countering the punch.
Another important piece to this puzzle is that GER is able to monologue to Diavolo while the time erasure is reversing. While the streets of Rome begin to piece back together before this monologue, Diavolo is still being forcibly moved back to his original spot after that panel. Furthermore, the background remains a swirly void during GER's speech, and Diavolo repeating his pre-time erasure line and noting that he hasn't moved at all both occur afterwards. GER’s speech itself outright states Giorno is unaware of RtZ’s power despite having just explained how it functions, implying Giorno is still not consciously aware of the situation yet and is still being affected by the time erasure. It is arguable GER is only aware in this period since its own power is actively returning Diavolo’s to zero at the time, but the fact Giorno is still oblivious to what is happening does imply they are still inside of Diavolo’s timeless void, which could be evidence of GER’s ability to be aware and act in places where time, and by extension speed, are irrelevant forces.
The Infinite Death Loop (Contact or Kill?)
The second aspect of Return to Zero is the Infinite Death Loop, which is described at the tail end of the Gold Experience Requiem’s description; not only will actions and will be returned to zero, but so will a users’ own death upon dying, trapping them in an infinite loop where each death is returned to zero, only to die again.
Well, first of all, the Viz Media translation states that whoever is “struck” by its power will have their death reverted to zero. Not necessarily an instant sign of this being the truth… if this was the only evidence. The Japanese raws also support a similar interpretation, with the kanji 殴られた translating directly to, “to strike/hit,” and both guidebooks that feature statements on GER support this translation, even using the same kanji. Diavolo’s initial death also makes more sense with this interpretation in mind.
After his beating by GER’s Muda barrage, Diavolo is notably bloodied from the initial beatdown caused by Requiem and floating just down the Tiber River very close to where Giorno obtained the arrow. In every single confirmed instance of the death loop, Diavolo is completely unwounded as a result of his prior “death,” and appears in a completely new location. All of this occurs instantly after his previous deaths, and Diavolo didn’t wake up in the autopsy room until he was stabbed in the sewer after the GER beatdown, making it unlikely that GER actually killed him. If Requiem’s attack was fatal, why would Diavolo be wounded at all, when that’s not how it works in any other case?
In Stardust Shooters, GER is present in a few of the Medals playable in the game, and they all feature some kind of unique ability based on the Stand’s abilities in-canon. One Medal returns an opponent's movement to zero, leaving them immobile and making their turn into Giorno's own. Another has GER deal damage to the opponent and sets their defense stat to 0. If taken literally, these greatly expand what would qualify as an action for Return to Zero, as they could imply GER can perpetually lock opponents in place with RtZ and negate any defense they possess against its attacks, which is even supported by what happened with Diavolo; him getting killed by the homeless person begs the question of why Diavolo didn’t just summon King Crimson and fight back? If he had his will, movement, and defense returned to zero, then he more than likely couldn’t summon KC during the death loop.
This would also explain why GER is able to do a death loop on contact - namely, killing the opponent instantly. Of course, that’s not the only reason why this could be the case - let’s talk about the other theories.
Of course, there is also the hypothesis that GER likely could have some degree of fate manipulation - we don’t have scans for this per se, but the coincidental nature of it is a little bit too odd to be a mere coincidence, especially since we know the defense to 0 was not done on Diavolo considering… he was still alive, as discussed earlier. And while you could say the stabber being there was a coincidence, considering the fact Diavolo was just hurt by Requiem and immediately after goes into the death loop and the themes of fate present throughout JoJo’s and in particular, Golden Wind, it would
So, Where Does GER Scale to Other Stands?
Given its nature as a Requiem Stand and its presentation within story, the question of how high GER scales in comparison to other Stands is naturally a common talking point. Within the manga, GER’s stats are listed as ‘None’, making the matter more complicated, along with the anime as well due to having the same kanji that means ‘None’. The obvious question really is does GER also gain a stat boost aside from having new powerful abilities? There’s quite a bit of evidence to suggest that this is the case.
The first piece of evidence comes from the first thing it does in the fight against Diavolo/King Crimson. When GER first transforms in the manga, it flicks a rock at Diavolo with high speed straight through his hand. Diavolo comments on the speed of this attack, saying he couldn't see it coming and only avoided it through Epitaph, and he states that GER got a physical boost. This should be consistent, as Gold Experience Requiem also beats Diavolo within an inch of his life in one MUDA barrage, and no-sold an attack from King Crimson that broke through Gold Experience’s old skin. This means GER clearly does possess some semblance of strength, speed, and durability that likely exceed what Gold Experience was normally capable of, meaning the stats are not literally “None”. The anime supports the rock-flicking with Diavolo saying he didn’t see the rock coming, and notes how strong the attack was, and the dub version even says that it “evaded his prediction,” and that GER has “newfound strength”.
Now if GER does have a stat boost, by how much is it? There is some merit to the idea that it upscales a variety of stands, though not necessarily all of them. In JOJO-A-GO!GO!, there is an excerpt on Gold Experience Requiem’s Stand Guide page that says “it is the “ultimate Stand” because it has an offensive power that surpasses that of existing Stands.” The direct kanji for “offensive power” is 攻撃力, which can be broken into two words. 攻撃 directly translates to “attack, strike, or offensive” while 力 translates to “force, strength, or might.” The emphasis on strength specifically implies this is referring directly to GER’s physicality, which means it would not only surpass Gold Experience’s own strength, but also upscales every Stand prior to its debut, including Star Platinum and The World. This can be reinforced by the description underneath the Stand stats, which says it is “impossible to compare Requiem's abilities to those of existing Stands by the same yardstick.” The relevant kanji is 能力, which simply translates to “ability”. This could be referring to Return to Zero specifically, but its position just below the Stand stats on the page could also indicate this refers to GER’s physicality, especially with the other excerpt existing on the same page.
Ultimately, this means GER does possess measurable physique, in spite of what its Stand Stats may say. Statements and upscaling from King Crimson would put Requiem as one of the physically best Stands in the series, arguably the best, but one that has physical limits nonetheless, including its speed. Even if Return to Zero as an ability is infinite in speed, GER’s own movements clearly are not, as Diavolo was able to see it move in erased time and partially avoid its rock flick through Epitaph’s predictions.
Artwork
Verdict
Stats
As in any debate, stats are a key decider in this verdict, as well. Both Joker and Giorno are near the peak of their verses, and as such should scale to almost any feat within them. Let’s start with Giorno’s side before going into Joker’s, to see how they compare.
For Giorno, we can scale him to many JoJo feats that get within the City Block to Town range - Dio’s cloud split and Planet Waves both get within this range of power. And as a Requiem stand able to overpower Diavolo, who was able to beat Polnareff, Giorno should be likely upscaling most of these feats at his peak. However, that’s not all. In terms of speed, he should scale to Silver Chariot’s infamous cut of the Hanged Man; Giorno was able to blitz Diavolo once he activated Requiem, so it should go without saying that he’s much faster then this, and should be upscaling as well.
However, there’s another elephant in the room; did Giorno react to the timeskip? This would, by necessity, be an infinite speed feat… and well, he probably did, as discussed in the BtV, but let’s go over why again! The transition between colors goes to GER’s immediately, and not Rome. If GER had reacted after the time skip had ended, then the background change wouldn’t be immediately to GER from King Crimson, but as shown in the anime, it very clearly is. At the very least, this is likely an infinite speed for Return to Zero, if not Requiem itself; though you could debate the validity of scaling it to Requiem’s own reaction speed, as it’s shown Requiem is a stat boost.
Having discussed where Giorno lies, we should discuss Joker’s own stats next. In terms of physical power, it’s no contest; Joker blows Giorno out of the water in terms of power. While Giorno’s best is around town levels of power, Joker has multiple showings on a universal scale thanks to him facing Yaldabaoth, Enlil, Maruki, and many more. However, calling these feats just universal would be a massive understatement; as discussed in the Cosmology section, all of these would be 5 to 7D feats, with higher arguments. As a result, Joker absolutely eclipses Giorno in raw physical strength.
As for speed, finite ends also favor Joker. Morning Star can reach millions of times the speed of light, with higher feats like Okumura’s Big Bang Burger getting in the quintillions range; as a result, finite ends make it so Joker should utterly blitz Giorno… however, that’s not accounting for Giorno’s infinite speed ends, you might be saying? Thankfully for Joker, he has his own counters to said ends.
Yaldabaoth plunging the Velvet Room into the depths of Mementos would require him moving a 5D structure that’s infinite and size and outside of space and time into space and time, which would inherently require immeasurable speed. In addition to that, Makoto Yuki floated from Earth to the deepest part of the Sea of Souls in his final battle with Nyx, and could even dodge Nyx’s attacks. Alice, one of Joker’s own Personas, was able to drift through the space-time continuum. There is also Nyarlathotep very casually dragging Kandori outside the multiverse into the Sea of Souls, and much much more. Joker has a plethora of arguments to match Giorno’s infinite ends with his own. In addition, Auto-Sukukuja would give Joker a speed edge at the start of a fight, meaning he’d have a way to be faster regardless.
In conclusion: finite ends favor Joker by a horrific margin in both strength and power, while infinite ends for power only make the gap worse, while making speed around even for both… however, Joker has stat buffs to ensure him the edge in this category, too, giving Joker dominance over this category.
Arsenal & Abilities
Oh good god.
The real meat and potatoes of a debate like Joker vs. Giorno lies here - their arsenal and abilities. However, before we talk about the most important ability interaction within this debate, let’s go over the rest of Giorno’s abilities first, to see how Joker can counter them.
In terms of Giorno’s non-Requiem abilities, Joker has solid counters to all of them. Due to Satanael absorbing all elements, including Strike, Gold Experience’s normal attacks would be rendered moot. The attack reflection given by its life giving constructs, while interesting, can be worked around via Almighty Attacks, and Joker’s Sleuthing Instinct would clue him in on them having this ability in the first place, rendering it moot. Age Acceleration, in addition to needing Giorno to hit Joker to activate it, is worked around via Patra, which has dispelled aging effects before. Overall, every single way you slice it, base to base, Giorno can’t really do anything.
However, luckily for GioGio, he has an ace up his sleeve, and it’s a good one. Gold Experience Requiem is a terrifying stand, with Return to Zero being a dangerous power that is extremely difficult to counter. So, with such a situation, how does Joker win?
Well, first of all, Joker resists its willpower manipulation. Tactica makes it extremely clear that Persona users innately cannot have their will manipulated by outside factors, and Joker’s Will of Rebellion has let him recover from much more ridiculous things, like his consciousness being erased - as a result, Giorno couldn’t return Joker's will to zero, meaning he can’t incapacitate Joker that way.
Second of all, defense being reverted to zero wouldn’t really mean much. It would work on Joker, but due to Satanael repelling all elements, Giorno still couldn’t actually do any damage to Joker, and Joker could undo the messing to his stats with Dekunda, meaning it wouldn’t amount to much in the end.
Now, however, we shift our focus to the true debate: how does Joker get around GER and its ability to return his actions to zero? We’ll be going through each of his arguments from the strongest to the weakest ones for why he’d be able to resist the death loop or Return to Zero itself, and then go over his various win conditions in a similar manner.
Argument #1: Omnipotent Orb
A popular argument for Joker resisting Return to Zero has always been the Omnipotent Orb, with it nulling all attacks - however, the Japanese raws give this item much more power then you would initially think. Its description on said raws says that it is a “ball that grants you the will to determine the world’s logic.”
Obviously, this kind of power is something that Giorno has never had to deal with, and law manipulation on this scale being used defensively would make Joker practically untouchable to him, even with Return to Zero. However, that’s not all that this description provides for Joker.
Despite it granting this insane defensive utility, Almighty Attacks can still bypass the orb’s effects, making it reasonable that they could bypass GER, considering they’re able to affect beings who can control and remove themselves from the world’s logic.
As a result of this, it’s likely that the Omnipotent Orb makes Joker untouchable, and any of his Almighty attacks could do the trick to defeat Requiem.
Argument #2: Trickster Physiology
Next of all, Joker’s nature as the Trickster could likely give him resistances to Requiem.
As the Trickster, Joker naturally defies his own and the fates of others around him - this is well established several times throughout Persona 5, to the point some descriptions of Joker straight up say he has a knack for changing fate, and his fate altering powers changing the fate of Ishtar, a goddess who views him and his world as a fictional story. This is, frankly, an absurd level of fate manipulation and resistance to fate manipulation for Joker. However, how is this relevant to this matchup?
Simple. The death loop.
Requiem putting you in the death loop on contact likely involves some degree of fate manipulation to ensure the first death, as shown with Diavolo. It was his fate to never reach the truth, and so he died at the hands of that mugger - it’s the only explanation that makes said scene make any real sense.
However, with Joker’s own resistances to fate manipulation, it’s unlikely such a trick would work on him, and as such, even if hit by Requiem, it’s unlikely the death loop would be able to properly start on Joker, as there’s no real way for Giorno to ensure his death to begin with, especially given interfering with Joker is more likely to change Giorno’s own fate then for Giorno to be able to change Joker’s fate.
Argument #3: Chronos
The final boss of Persona Q is the God of Time, Chronos - and befitting his nature, he has several time manipulating abilities. The most pertinent of these to this debate, however, is his ability to reverse time. Notably, when he uses this attack, despite the background and himself being affected, the party is not. As Persona users gain their resistances from their power and not innately for the most part, and anyone in the P3/4 crew resists this ability, Joker would have a similar resistance.
Against Return to Zero, this is a game changer. Reversing time is comparable to Requiem’s ability, after all - and Joker resists that. You could argue, from there, that Return to Zero wouldn’t do anything against Joker, as its main function is something Joker has resisted entirely. Though this isn’t entirely solid, as Return to Zero is more of a cause and effect removal rather than direct time reversion.
Argument #4: Yaldabaoth
Against Yaldabaoth, Joker was able to reclaim his own existence despite him being erased from cognition itself, which would both destroy his existence and erase him from the history of the world - and despite this, he along with the other Phantom Thieves were able to come back from having all their actions in time erased completely.
Considering Joker was able to come back from this level of messing with his time and history, and the fact Yaldabaoth was unable to try this on him again, it’s unlikely that Return to Zero, with this in mind, could actually do anything to him.
Now, people may counter-argue this with the fact that Joker was able to fall victim to Enlil and Maruki’s similar abilities, but this isn’t an anti-feat for Joker. When he fought Enlil, he was massively weakened, not even having the Wild Card, and when Enlil tried to erase Joker from cognition, it just… didn’t work. Meanwhile, Maruki is stronger than Joker, and Joker had lost his peak he had gained with Satanael, having given said power to Maruki - this moreso shows the potency of Maruki’s hax rather than an anti-feat for Joker’s resistances. Especially given his other direct feats of resisting or nullifying cognition, such as the fight against Yaldabaoth when he negated his Rays of Control.
Argument #5: Cogs of Fate
Joker’s arguments for resisting fate manipulation aren’t limited to just Trickster arguments. Within Tactica, there’s an attack the final boss, Salmael - who’s noted as having fate manipulation capabilities strong enough to affect the Velvet Room - can use, named Cogs of Fate. And naturally, Erina shows resistances to the capabilities of these cogs within a cutscene. As Erina is a weaker Phantom Thief then Joker and this story also has Joker immensely weakened in comparison to any other point in Persona, Joker resisting fate manipulation and thus being unable to be affected by the death loop is likely.
And there you have it. Joker has not one, but five arguments for resisting Return to Zero or the death loop by himself. Even if you don’t buy one of them, you’d have to debunk every single one for Giorno to win here. However, what about Joker’s own win conditions? Well, if he resists Return to Zero by itself, he could shoot Giorno… but, that’s really boring. Let’s go over Joker’s win conditions.
Win Condition #1: Almighty Attacks/Omnipotent Orb
As discussed in the Omnipotent Orb section, Almighty Attacks can bypass the Orb’s ability to change the laws of the world to protect the holder. This should allow it to bypass Return to Zero and be able to hit Giorno directly, nuking him on the spot, especially given the existence erasure properties of Megidolaon. The Omnipotent Orb itself being able to control the logic of the world could also allow for Joker to use said power offensively against Joker to break through Requiem.
Win Condition #2: Cognition
Within Persona 5’s climax, the public puts their faith in the Phantom Thieves, making them - and by extension, Joker himself , the new rulers of Mementos, giving them the impressive cognitive powers both Yaldabaoth and Maruki were able to tap into at their peaks. As a result of this, Joker’s Sinful Shell, made from the collective desire of the people, could likely overpower Return to Zero due to the cognition of the people powering it - Giorno has never resisted such a power and has anti showings against such forms of reality warping, as per Eyes of Heaven, meaning that it’s unlikely he could stop the Sinful Shell at all, its potency being a major factor in this. Sinful Shell was able to one-shot Yaldabaoth, the God of Control and e being made from the cognition of the people desiring a ruler - and yet, Sinful Shell destroyed him utterly. In addition, Joker is drawing upon the same power as Yaldabaoth and Maruki - i.e., the entire Collective Unconscious. Suffice it to say, Giorno has not dealt with a reality warping attack coming from a 7D source of power, and especially given Requiem’s showings against reality warping on a far less level, it’s not a great sign for him.
Win Condition #3: Mental Ailments
As a JRPG protagonist, Joker has access to several mental ailments, a few of which have interesting properties in a fight against Giorno - namely, Makajamaon allowing him to use Forget, which would apply power nullification to Giorno, making him and GER forget how to use its abilities entirely and bypassing any resistances to mindhax they may have. In addition, Abysmal Words would apply Despair to Giorno, which would both nullify his ability to use Requiem and would kill him after some time, making it impossible for him to do anything.
Joker’s mindhax is also extremely powerful, as they’re able to affect Personas, despite the fact they and the Persona User’s Will of Rebellion can even defend them when the user’s mind has been stolen from them, meaning any resistance GER could potentially had would be ineffective against the potency of the hax.
Win Condition #4: Death Manipulation
As a JRPG protagonist, Joker also has a plethora of instant death spells. Return to Zero Interacting with this is odd, because these attacks would kill Giorno or GER instantly. It’s an odd situation, but with GER having not interacted with such an ability or situation before, it’s hard to concretely say Giorno would be able to return his death to zero instantly.
Win Condition #5: Nice Requiem, Can I Have It?
Joker has shown the ability to turn Shadows into Personas and seal them into his mask. It’s also been shown in other Persona material that Personas can be stolen by other Persona users using methods similar to this - therefore, you could theoretically argue Joker could take Requiem for himself and from there leave Giorno utterly defenseless.
One Last Thing…
One thing we haven’t mentioned but is also an important question - can Giorno even hit Joker? And the answer? …Probably not.
Satanael absorbs all elements, and the Omnipotent Orb manipulates the logic of the world to suit the user, specifically using it to protect them - Requiem has not dealt with a defense like this, and against an opponent similar in reality warping powers, outright failed to work. As a result, even if you believe GER can death loop on contact and Joker’s resistances to fate manipulation don’t cover that, it’s hard to say that GER would be able to touch Joker in order to start said death loop to begin with, even ignoring every other point we’ve made.
With all these in mind, Joker has a plethora of ways to win against Giorno - in order for Joker to lose here, you would need to argue every single win condition and resistance brought up here is inaccurate, while if a single one is accurate, he would still win, especially given Sleuthing Instinct would clue him into Giorno being resistant to his normal skills, making it more likely he’d try these strategies instead.
Overall, while Requiem was certainly a tricky obstacle to overcome, Joker had several ways to overcome its abilities and functions, while Giorno would have no real way to kill Joker to begin with. As a result, Joker should take abilities as well.
Tertiary Factors
While the tertiary factors in a debate like this may be less important then in most, they still hold a lot of weight.
First of all, both skill and experience are in Joker’s corner by a mile. Joker’s been fighting as a Phantom Thief for well over a year, and has trained quite a bit as a result in his abilities, while Giorno’s time as an active stand user fighting against Passione was for only about a week. Joker also gains the memories of his Personas, meaning he would have even more skill and experience to fall back upon against an opponent like Giorno.
As well for experience, Joker has fought opponents who warp reality and time against him, as well as trying to manipulate his fate. He’s fought opponents similar to Requiem, while Giorno has never fought anyone nearly as versatile or powerful as Joker in the past.
However, Giorno should generally have better tactics within a fight. Joker’s certainly impressive in this regard, but Giorno’s shown better on-the-spot thinking in a fight as well as being able to pick up on his enemies to an extent Joker simply hasn’t quite matched. Although with abilities like Sleuthing Instinct, Joker can still make important deductions about his enemies mid-fight, so he’s not a slouch in this category.
In conclusion, Joker should take skill and experience, especially given he’s fought opponents with similar powers to Giorno, while Giorno is generally smarter and more tactical. Joker should overall take tertiaries as a result.
Conclusion
Joker
Advantages:
Infinitely stronger regardless of high or low ends
Immensely faster at low ends, and can match Giorno’s highest speed argument and surpass it with stat buffs
Far more skilled and experienced, and possesses theoretically far greater knowledge via Personas
Resists his willpower being returned to zero
Has multiple arguments to resist Return to Zero itself, as well as bypassing it completely
Possesses strong win conditions even if he lacks resistance to Return to Zero
Capable of resisting and escaping the death loop if it lands
Has far greater versatility due to his many more hax options
Better stamina and recovery options
Has experience against reality and time bending opponents
Can make himself immune to Giorno and GER’s attacks via skills and the Omnipotent Orb
Is probably going to get another 3 spin-offs before Atlus drops Persona 6
Actually has a “Jo” in his name
Disadvantages:
Cannot resist his defense being returned to zero
Generally has worse showings of being a tactical fighter by comparison
Anime is dogshit
Persona 5 fans don’t play Persona 5
2/14
Giorno
"You... will not... go anywhere... More precisely, you will never reach the truth!"
Advantages:
Smarter and more tactical
Gold Experience Requiem is a very difficult opponent to overcome
Could return Joker’s defense to zero…
Potentially faster with his high end arguments…
Anime is godlike
Has the better theme song
Disadvantages:
Immensely weaker
…But Nulls, Omnipotent Orb, and Dekunda can subvert this effect
…But Joker can match that speed with his own high ends
Has no real way to kill Joker
Joker has several win conditions he has no way around, even with Requiem
Far less experienced and skilled
Cannot return Joker’s will to zero
RtZ can be bypassed in a few ways
Has no way of resisting the scale of reality warping Cognition has
That stupid ass donut ass haircut
Bro’s ultimate stand was there for like, 2 minutes
This was certainly a complex debate that pushed both characters to their limits, but overall, the cards are in the Trickster’s favor in this fight. In terms of stats, Joker should take them handedly; he has an infinite edge in power and an edge in speed in finite ends, with Auto-Sukukuja giving him an edge in speed at the beginning of a fight even with infinite ends for both in play.
Of course, stats were never the real question in a debate like this, but in terms of abilities, Joker has everything he needs to win here as well. He has several arguments to resist Return to Zero; Chronos’ time reversal, his nature as the Trickster, the Omnipotent Orb, Cogs of Fate, etc. Even if you don’t buy one of these counters, all that’s needed is a single one to be viable for Joker to win here.
And even ignoring arguments for him resisting Return to Zero himself, he has several abilities to get the job done that wouldn’t be able to be countered; Almighty skills, his potential Cognition powers at his peak as shown with Sinful Shell, and mental ailments all are ways for him to work around Requiem and defeat it even if he doesn't fully resist its effects. No matter how you slice it, Joker has far more ways to win than Giorno does, especially since Giorno being able to win at all requires the contact interpretation of Requiem’s death loop, which some would argue isn’t correct to begin with.
While it’s far less important, Joker also has resistances to Giorno’s base kit as well; Patra can undo age manipulation, as well as Unshaken Will making him immune to mental ailments, and Almighty should bypass attack reflection, meaning even these wouldn’t be viable fallbacks for Giorno.
And finally, in tertiary factors, Joker firmly takes skill and experience, and has showings of fighting beings with similar abilities to Giorno, meaning he’d definitely be more equipped to win this fight in mentality, as well.
Make no mistake - Giorno and Gold Experience Requiem were a nearly unstoppable duo, with incredible abilities that could defeat nearly any other opponent. However, Joker had the stats, counters, win-conditions, and experience to ensure that this Traitor’s Requiem would meet his Last Surprise.
The winner is Joker.
Final Tally
Joker (11) - door-kun, Time, Kether, Yultehdoof, MomoUra, Bang, Discount Ginger, greymerlion2, The Monster King, HeavenPiercerChris, Electrik
Giorno (1) - Giotto
Holy shit Giorno got nuked
ReplyDeletegiorno got 1 vote he still has a chance (coping)
ReplyDeleteGiovanna's strongest soldier
DeleteWhat I'm hearing is that GioGio needs a grade A Death Battle S1-2 era fumble to get this W.
ReplyDeleteAND REMEMBER: That kid Rohan fought and Pucci could BOTH steal stands, so Joker stealing GER is still a possibility.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna laugh so hard if Joker loses. Happy if he wins, but man I have a feeling. Great blog, as always.
ReplyDeleteGiorno thought changing 2 letter in his name into "tt" and we wouldnt notice it
ReplyDelete