Saturday 5 September 2020

Death Battle Predictions: Wally West VS Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie) - Part 2 / Verdicts

 ...Hey! Welcome back to the show! We hope you enjoyed the intermission, now it’s time we get back to business and see who will win between the Scarlet Speedster and the Blue Blur!

Verdicts


Verdicts for Archie Sonic

CEWinick

(Way Past Cool)

I am happy to get my first L for my prediction series for G1. Now 5-1-1, I had a blast watching Beerus Vs Galaxia as it was entertaining and still taught me what I need to improve on. Still, I had a blast and wanted to take a break for the next fight despite me loving Zuko and Shoto. The episode was good despite the research and animation could have been better, and I thought to myself that the next fight could be one that will be something fight we might ne- 

What the fight was. 


How I reacted 


In all seriousness, Wally West Vs Archie Sonic took me off guard as it shocked me that ONE OF MY DREAMED Matchups in my childhood finally came true. I and my brother Darren are fans to both characters where I learn more to Sonic and him towards The Flash (ahhh). We have always debated on who would win between the two fastest characters in fiction, even if it was Barry Allen. We even watched the OMM episode of it when they used to be with ScrewAttack, but we both admitted Sonic ``cheated”. When I showed my brother this fight as well, even he could not believe that The Strongest Flash is taking on Archie Sonic. I loved both Wally West and Archie Sonic despite me starting very late on both series, but this was my dream matchup I always wanted to see ever since middle school. That was why the moment I got into for this prediction, I went all out on research for Archie Sonic’s part. From most of the feats to the background bio, and from Ultra Sonic to the 1 Billionth Power Ring, I wanted to show how prepared and hyped I am for doing the prediction and showing my thoughts on the winner. For my three main factors was a hard one as this was indeed the hardest one to decide on the verdict because of how the fight itself is 50/50. I had to decide very hard on the three major factors on this because of how Wally and Sonic “nearly” countered each other. It has taken me some video watching and long research to figure out my factor. 


This is why I want to start right away with my three deciding factors for this fight which are: Haxes, Skills & Experience, and The Chaos Force Vs The Speed Force. 


Round 1- Haxes: Now, most of you are surprised that stats are not on here for the first time in my verdict. That is because of how at the end of the day, Flash and Sonic are truly equally matched at the end. All of the G1’s, including myself, found out right away how both are truly tied in stats overall when you compare them at their max. Both are strong to take on foes stronger than them, both have tanked multiversal destruction, and at the end of the day, both are tied due to both having immeasurable speed. This is why their abilities and haxes are here as the first main factor because of how they can counter each other to get the upper edge. Flash holds no punches from his long time in the comics, thanks to the Speed Force, he truly shows how broken Speedsters are in the world of DC. He can create lightning, create clones of himself, manipulate time, and manipulate his own molecules to heal himself, be invisible, or intangible. His greatest haxes has to be Wally’s Speed Steal and his infinite mass punch, which both alone are what makes the Speed Force broken. Speed Steal allows Wally to steal anyone’s speed from kinetic energy and increase his speed by a lot. While the Infinite Mass Punch is Flash's strongest attack and has been stated to be as powerful as a White Dwarf Star. Truly impressive in Wally’s favor to give him the win in most of his fights, but how does Archie Sonic do in his part? For most people who have read the series of Sonic in the comics, he is easily just as broken as most superheroes in comics. Sonic’s abilities are very broken when it comes to his arsenal he carries around him and keeps him in this fight. Both the chaos emeralds and power rings alone are powerful, where they are able to bend reality, grant wishes, make dreams into reality, travel to other dimensions, increase one’s power, gain knowledge and heal/restore. He can do chaos control that warps time and space, erase people from existence (in Worlds Collide), has a sealing technique, and chaos energy to shoot beams or use forces. As Super Sonic his stats increase by a lot and he always becomes invincible for a long time, unlike the game version. And as Ultra Sonic despite having a shorter time frame, he can control atoms and matter to control the elements. Ultra Sonic can also create portals and adapts to the environments. But, his most effective hax so far has to be his One Billionth Ring and the aura Sonic received from it. Despite having the theories for its maximum use, Sonic is nearly impossible to kill due to how the aura mainly defends him in almost every way. Try to mind control him? That won’t work as Sonic’s aura has shown multiple times Sonic will not allow that. Try to wrap reality and erase Sonic from existence? Eggman tries that many times and still backfires. Sonic can even nullify power and magic to where most other experience hax users. This is excluding the plot armor he gets too where he will always win in the end, but again that fate manipulation is questionable yet the ToonForce kind supports in the favor. 


 That is how broken Sonic is because his powerful haxes can truly bend nearly anything to Sonic’s favor. That is why the comparison of their haxes alone Sonic has more advantages in his favor. Wally does still have the edge in speed stealing Sonic, has better healing, and better control of his molecules. However, Sonic’s advantages are more effective when it comes to being versatile in power and durability. Sonic’s forms and their invincibility makes Wally’s Infinite Mass Punch unkillable, have no counters to Sonic’s 1 Billionth Ring/Aura, and have better control with dimensional travel, and can restore his speed. My point is that Wally’s abilities are truly helpful in his stats of speed where he might be able to become faster than Sonic, but the problem is that Sonic will still be able to keep up and overpowers him once he gets the chance. 

Wally haxes were good, but Sonic’s were more broken and effective. Round 1 goes to Sonic in Haxes.    


Round 2-Skill/Experience: When you are the fastest beings alive, you gotta have the skills and experience to control your speed. And given how both Wally and Sonic have been around in the comics for many years, it is safe to say that both will use their lessons to take the lead over the other. While Wally used to be the sidekick to Barry, he earned his title as the main Flash. He is a genius, more or less, as he has been fighting his fair share of enemies. He also was able to get himself a degree from college. The most important though is his mastery of the Speed Force. Because of his many years of using the Speed Force, he has truly become one of the strongest users to use it. Sonic may be the thrill-seeker, but he also has the brains to come with his skills. His many years of being with the freedom fighters not only makes him experienced but also very skilled in hand-to-hand combat. He is able to go toe to toe with Knuckles, Antonie, Shadow, Blaze, and Silver who all in their own rights are very skilled with their combat experience. Sonic is very perceptive in spotting the smallest detail even when he is not on the battlefield. Like the time he spotted a weapon from an imposter Antonie and resulted in Sonic being right. Sonic is able to make quick decisions even if they were made in a split-second, and shown multiple times to use his environment to gain advantages. When comparing, you could say that both Wally and Sonic are experienced fighters with genius levels of intelligence. Sonic is without a doubt a better fighter due to better combat skills and technical awareness of his surroundings, but Wally’s mastery of the Speed Force is what decides the major difference to their skills. The main reason why the Flash is as strong as he is because of his hard work and control of his speed force. It alone is why Sonic will have a hard time in this fight because Wally’s connection is very effective in changing the fight to his favor. Sonic was the better fighter, but Wally’s Speed Force alone stole this round to bring this match tied 1-1. Round 2 goes to the Flash.        


Final Round-Speed Force Vs. Chaos Force: The ultimate decision to me that will decide on the winner of the speedsters comes down to their main sources of power. The Speed Force against the Chaos Force. Both of these forces are the reason why both Sonic and Wally are able to do the impossible, and both forces will collide together that to me will play a major part in the actual Death Battle. The only question is: Which force would fall first? The one that is the most effective in controlling the battle and repelling the other will result in the true winner of this fight. As we discussed for Wally, The Speed Force is insane. Because of how the force is one of the seven main physics laws in DC, Wally’s speed is infinite and comes a lot with Wally’s maximum power. He can steal other’s speed, manipulate his molecules to do the infinite mass punch or heal himself, and even trap others in the Speed Force itself. The Speed Force’s energy is the main source that is responsible for rebooting most timelines of the DC Universe. So, how does the Chaos Force handle that type of energy? Surprisingly, it is kinda similar to how Chaos Energy is mystic and surrounding the whole multiverse for Sonic while also having unlimited energy. The difference is how they are used when linked to the Chaos Force. While Sonic never had a special connection like Knuckles, he has shown to be very powerful with it thanks to the links from the PowerRings and Chaos Emeralds. With them, he was able to gain his 1 Billionith Ring Aura ability and his powerful forms of Super Sonic and Ultra Sonic. The Power Rings alone can give Sonic knowledge, restore his speed, or grant wishes. Mostly based on what I told in round 1 is that the Chaos Force bends space, time, and reality to its will depending on the user’s power to their energy. When looking at both, The Speed Force is indeed more reliable and might be effective in gaining Chaos Energy as Wally has shown it can steal other types of energy as well. 

This means that The Speed Force is the winner. Right… well, no. You see, while we talked about the strengths of the Speed Force and Chaos Force, I wanted to research their weaknesses as well. And this is where Speed Force trips over on itself. For starters, the Speed Force does not always save the user as there is always a limit to speedsters and their type of energy. It has been shown many times that special types of energies can still affect the user even with using the Speed Force, as Darkseid showed from Barry with his Omega Beams. Keep in mind that Wally is still a human being with superpowers, as even a bullet is enough to take him down like Batman’s dad did with Reverse Flash in FlashPoint. Most importantly, the Speed Force has been shown that it can be stolen and nearly got destroyed from Zoom. Speed Force has been shown it can also be stolen or taken away as Gorilla Grodd was able to steal Barry’s energy for himself, and Barry lost his powers at the beginning of FlashPoint. Wally still needs movement in his molecules in order to run, but Captain Cold has proven that slowing down his molecules like being at low temperature can put him on hold. However, the most damning flaw of all, is that the crossover with Marvel is still cannon. Which most of you already know what I am talking about: 

The Speed Force Only Works In The DC Multiverse

This argument can easily be debated upon, but this crossover is still proud that The Speed Force is not expanded to other multiverses. And yes, the chaos force does have its own faults as it depends on the power of the user and even got erased in the aftermath of Worlds Collide. However, it has shown to have a much wider range of power and manipulation. Wally West could indeed steal some Chaos Energy and use it on himself, but the problem with that is that Sonic again has much more experience and dealt with enemies that have stolen his speed or chaos energy before and has many counters that could truly affect Flash in his connection with the Speed Force. Because of Chaos being able to warp reality and the law of physics far better than West, Sonic has more ways to finish West off with his Chaos Force. Not only can he be able to escape thanks to his haxes and export his weaknesses like using Ultra Sonic to limit his connection with the Speed Force, but Sonic’s technical genius in combat will give enough to keep up with Flash and avoid most of Flash's strengths with his own energy. Think of it this way: both the Speed Force and Chaos Force are unlimited sources of energy that can make the user go beyond the limits of the user in offense and defense.  The difference comes in range and power, where the Speed Force sadly lacks and can be overpowered from other energies, and the Chaos Force to me is strong enough to overcome the Speed Force. The Speed Force was fast, but the Chaos Force was stronger and had a better range to overpower it. The Final Round and deciding factor goes to the Blue Blur. 


Overall, this was truly the hardest prediction I have ever done because of how broken both Sonic and Wally have with their power at max. I love both characters and even though Wally has this fight in the bad at first. However, Beerus Vs. Glaxaia and Hulk Vs. Doomsday taught me that the details behind the powers are the most important focus. And after looking at both sides and connections, the Speed Force is not effective as most people think. Yes, it’s powerful and reliable for Wally West in staying in the fight; however, Sonic has too many ways around The Speed Force and West’s abilities that will give the hedgehog more winning outcomes than Wally. Sonic’s abilities and Chaos energy are fair greater for Wally to even survive and wait for Sonic to kill, yet again most of Sonic’s abilities and control over reality make it very low in Wally killing him as he can also keep up in terms of speed. The gaps are hard to ignore when you compare and contrast on who can get better control of both the race and the fight in the end, Sonic has the overall win in my book.

Wally West was truly the best Flash thanks to his Speed Force and Mastery on it, but Archie Sonic had better power when it came to Haxes, arsenal, Chaos Force, and fighting spirit to OutFlash this fight. Sonic will become the King of Speed in Fiction after he is done with Death Battle. 

 


At least this can come to an end. I had a blast on this blog as it is my favorite one to do in how much effort I added to create it. I am proud of the finished product and I know that this fight can truly go either way. I will be happy with the outcome as long as it is reasonable and backs it up with research, which I know it will. Anyways, I hope you all have an amazing weekend and stay awesome.



Birb

(So uh, this apparently was a thing that happened in the comics...why wasn’t I told?)


Oh boy, oh fucking boy here we go with this match. This is probably THE most convoluted and close fight DB has done this season, if not through the entire show. Just talking about this fight is opening a massive can of worms that leads to places I don’t wanna touch. Like, legit no matter who wins this fight salt will flow by the tons, and I’ll be sitting there with my popcorn.

Jokes aside, Archie Sonic vs Wally West is a complicated as hell MU and both of these guys just fucking spit in the face of logic. Apparently the research team straight up went back and forth on this fight for a while. But now it’s happening and I gotta give my thoughts so...here we go.

AP wise I’m not gonna waste time, they’re pretty much dead even. Wally broke the Anti-Monitor’s armor, while Sonic stopped the Genesis Wave. Both of these are multiversal, if not multi+. Sonic I’d say has the slight edge but eh.

Speed, again, dead even, maybe give a slight edge to Wally. What’s their speed at, you may ask? Is there a concrete number for them? I fucking wish. This is where we start to see logic getting tossed in the dumpster along with my copy of Borderlands 3 and Disney Star Wars. Both of these guys don’t actually have calculable top speeds. Closest we got is Sonic at base getting to, what, Octillions c?! But even then you can argue he still shits on logical speed. Alright, so what am I talking about when I say both have immeasurable speed? Well, uh, they’re both faster than time. They are both faster. Than. Time huh? Thanks for the top! Both of these fuckers have outran time stops or moved time just by running or whatever the fuck. They are literally beyond speed.


Now onto the meat and potatoes of this fight, cause like pretty much all my fav MUs, this is a fight decided by hax. Isn’t that right, Elephant in the Room?




….Fucker still hasn’t paid his half of rent.

Anyway, if you paid attention, you may have noticed my choice of words. Wally has a slight speed advantage while Sonic has a slight AP advantage. Now, what do I mean by this?

In terms of speed, Wally is said to be faster than the Speed Force and can straight up steal someone’s ‘speed’. Neither of these make any scientific goddamn sense whatsoever but it’s DC. Asking logic from DC is like asking for a good character arc from the Disney Star Wars trilogy. (Man. I am on a roll today with these.)

Sonic meanwhile scales to some pretty hefty shit. The Super Genesis Wave was able to wipe out a ton of Sega and Capcom multiverses and Chaos Control can just nope that shit away.

So who takes it. Can’t believe I’m saying this but I ultimately believe Archie Sonic is taking home the gold here. Let me explain.

First off, Wally’s speed steal, one of his key advantages, really isn’t doing shit. Not only can the rings ‘restore’ his ‘lost speed’ but they have straight up counterracted anti-inertia fields before. So that’s not working. Another one of Wally’s wincons is dumping Sonic to the Speed Force but again, Sonic has ways out of there. Meanwhile Sonic rewrote a wave that was capable of tearing multiverses apart, so the Speed Force might be able to be affected. Now, Wally can sense reality warping, but Tails, in one of his super forms, once bypassed Mogul sensing a reality warp, and Sonic scales to that, so it is probable that Sonic could do it without Wally noticing. Plus there aren’t really any instances of the Speed Force being attacked directly so Wally has no precedent to expect it, AND Sonic’s rings apparently can ‘tell’ him information he needs to know. Comics, man, ain’t they fucked.

Also worth mentioning the Zone of Silence, which Sonic can dump Wally into. While it’s not an instant wincon, it’s notable that it is specifically said to erase vibrations, Wally’s whole shtick, and the guy who said it took days from what I recall, had specific resistances to that. So at the very least, Zone of Silence could theoretically disorient Wally.


I could very well be wrong with all of this, and this fight is pretty much as close as it gets, but I’m sticking with my guns here. Sonic loses I’ll admit it, but in all honesty this is a fight I think has no real discernable victor, and you can make convincing arguments for both taking the W here. But I feel Sonic’s wincons are just a bit more plausible and his advantages more noteworthy.

The Flash is gonna be hitting a Wall-y here, as Sonic will prove he is the perfect Arch-ie rival to the Scarlet Speedster.


A DC L?

Huh. Neat.
Also his name is mAURICE

KirbyKid


Both are at immeasurable speed. 


Both have crazy power and durability. 


Both draw from infinite power sources.


Both have haxes that honestly, when scaled to their ridiculous feats, become moot and difficult for either to really overcome.


This is a fight Wally simply cannot win without utilizing the speed force, and I think that’s where he loses this match. 


Archie Sonic is powerful, so powerful in fact, that it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to say that once placed into the speed force, he would be able to affect it in SOME way. 


Sure, other DC speedsters that aren’t flashes can’t access the force, but so few of them are all about speed in the way Sonic is, in addition to having the ability to merge with and tap into the powers of the environment like Ultra Sonic can.


Generations of Speedsters have been able to tap into the Speed Force. It would be silly to think that Sonic, a tried and true speedster, wouldn’t be able to affect it or try something with it in some way. Especially with Ultra Sonic’s atomic structure being able to match its surroundings. If we take Ian Flynn’s statements into account here, infinite + infinite = infinite. If Sonic gets powered up by the speed force, in addition to getting powered up by the chaos emeralds, and ring magic, I feel his power would be too much for Wally to handle at that point. Too much in regards not only to his powers, but his speed, which Sonic has consistently shown to be past the concept of speed in a similar fashion Flash has. I think this’ll be one of the few matches where another series canon and abilities will be used against itself, when the reasoning can easily be drawn from the various over the top examples seen in Archie.


It’s close, really close, and depending on the reasoning, this could go either way, and I trust the opinions that sway to either Wally or Sonic, but I feel like the blue blur consistently breaks limits in the same way Wally does, and ironically will be the one to use Flash’s power source against him.


Sonic says: Losing to Flash is NO GOOD.


Verdicts for Wally West

Malcolm Belmont 


Been working on the last two blogs though didn’t make verdicts for a couple of reasons (that i won’t be going into). Don’t really want to miss out on a third one and luckily for me - this is a matchup I do have attachment to due to me wanting all of the Justice League Animated Series plus I have always liked the idea of Sonic and Flash fighting in a DEATH BATTLE (though the fact Barry Allen vs Game Sonic would be a stomp) made be a bit weary of it though going with Wally West and Archie Sonic was hands down the best option for this fight/


The reason for that is that - this fight is EXTREMELY close and whoever wins, I am not going to be upset about it. You could honestly make a valid argument either way but this is my own personal opinion on who i think will win and right now at the time of writing this verdict - i am leaning Wally in an extremely close fight.


I am not going to go into too much detail as other people’s verdicts will likely be more comprehensive and extensive then mine but ultimately when it comes down to it - can Wally take out Sonic/vice versa. Archie Sonic is extremely powerful in Super Sonic Form/Ultra Sonic Form he is very easily Multiversial due to being Super Mega Man’s equal who reverse the effects of the Super Genesis Wave that was consuming the Multiverse.He even defeated Solaris who was going to destroy all of the Pre-Genesis Multiverse. There’s little to no argument that Archic Sonic at his max would be Multiversal Level though Wally is no slouch either in this category since he destroyed Destroyed the Anti-Monitor in his armour. While he didn’t destroy his core form - the fact he managed to completely destroy his armour which has tanked attacks from the likes of the Spectre,Superman and a lot of the DC Universe.Wally is also capable of shattering Lantern Constructs who can tank Universe Level/Multiverse Level Explosions as shown with Kilowag on Crisis on Infinite Earths. Wally is also comparable to his mentor Barry Allen who fought off the rest of the Justice League by himself.No matter where you slice it, it is pretty evident that both Archie Sonic and Wally are comparable to each other in strength. 


But despite Wally and Archie Sonic being comparable to each other in terms of strength, Wally has a couple of things going for him that will probably slide the match into his direct at least in my opinion. That being that Wally has better healing and regeneration then Archie Sonic. Wally can heal himself almost  instantaneously with Speed Healing. He can also heal faster the more speed he steals from his opponent, which is perfect against a person like Sonic who is constantly running. As long as he is able to keep up with him and touch him he can heal himself much faster. Sonic while does have his Super Sonic Shields and his One Billion Ring Aura to reduce attack damage - is not invincible and has not shown an extensive healing factor compared to Wally. Meaning Archie Sonic will be constantly taking damage and Wally will be using Speed Healing to heal himself. Wally’s also managed to regenerate himself from frankly insane things considering he managed to reform his body from actual water vapor - which is just nuts frankly. 


There’s also Speed Steal which perhaps hands down Wally’s best option against Sonic. With Speed Steal, Wally can rob his target of their speed. Considering how fast Sonic is, he can constantly steal speed from Sonic - making him go slower and slower while he can amp up his speed to instant levels considering. When Wally took speed from an entire planet he was able to  outpace literal teleportation. If he wanted to take out Sonic permanently he can slow down a victim’s body to the point where it takes them an entire century to blink. And I know what you are thinking - what about the Rings? Don’t they restore Sonic’s Speed? Well yes they do but at the same time - Sonic does not have an infinite number of them meaning in a long battle - Sonic will likely eventually run out of rings - preventing himself from restoring his speed or Wally simply tries to knock the rings from Sonic’s hand. Considering the fact that Wally is pretty damn smart and he is quite good at picking things up - he would likely know the Rings were tied to Sonic’s Speed and would prevent them from using it. 


Ultimately, i don’t think that Archie Sonic really has any means of permanently stopping Wally from Stealing his Speed considering they are both at comparable speeds a/t both have performed Massively Faster than Light Feats with Wally considering Tempus Fuginaut, an incredibly powerful cosmic entity, outright states that Wally is the single fastest entity in the multiverse to ever exist. While this is a statement, it is backed up by the fact that he managed to outrace the Ran faster than the Speed Force which is a Multiversal Spanning Energy. He also managed to evacuate 500 thousand people from a city in 0.00001 microseconds and outran the implosion of the universe - he should definitely be Massively Faster than Light. Sonic’s no slouch either with having to Sonic outran time itself to save Mobius as well as the feats that were mentioned in the blog prove he should be also MFTL. 


Ultimately it comes down to whose hax beats who as well as whose hax is better at countering the other. While I could easily see DEATH BATTLE making an argument as to why Archie Sonic would win, for my money I would have to bet on Wally for this one. 


TheNerd-Bot

"Max was right. He was right all along. I am afraid. I’m afraid of replacing Barry. But I’m more afraid… of letting this bastard do it!"


RIP to Wally West VS Simon the Digger. Oh well, any love for Wally’s a plus in my book! Yeah, so if ya couldn’t guess, I’m gunning for Wallace Westworld here. What can I say? The dude’s genuinely one of DC’s best characters, and he’s got charm and character development out the ass. Sadly, though, my only familiarity with Archie comics are the misadventures of a lovable redheaded highschooler stuck in a love triangle. But, I’ll try my best in explaining my stance on this fight, even though I don’t know too much about the opposition. I’ll keep it briefer than the others, since a lot of this is just restating of what they’re going to explain later on down the line.


Just from what I’ve learned during these debates, Archie Sonic’s got a lot of abilities up his non-existent sleeves, so let’s try and look at them piece by piece to see if he has any proper way to take Wally out of the fight, hm?


Sonic can replenish his speed being stolen? Well, it still doesn’t prevent Wally from stealing it in the first place, which can heal him, and make him even more ludicrously fast. Not to mention, Wally can still steal speed from other speedsters, who can normally resist having their speed stolen.


Sonic can phase through objects, which he himself states is dangerous? Wally can do it too, with it being far less risky to him, and he also has the power to counter other phasers. Not to mention, I haven’t seen any real evidence of Sonic resisting Wally straight-up stealing his organs and killing him that way.


Sonic has Molecular Manipulation? Speed Force users can no-sell it, with Wally himself actually managing to reform his body from actual water vapor.


Sonic can banish Wally to the Zone of Silence? Dimensional travel is Wally’s thing, man, and he can do the same to Sonic via Speed Force entrapment, which is far bigger and way more powerful. On a side note to this, I’ve heard some people arguing that the Zone of Silence could negate Wally’s connection to the Speed Force due to sound and vibrations ceasing to exist there, but in the same page, it states that it takes days for that to set in, which is plenty of time for Wally to escape.


Sonic can use stuff like the Chaos and Super Emeralds to counter an attack that risked destroying the multiverse? Wally can fight off Multiversal level opponents such as the Anti-Monitor and Black Racer as well as threatening the fabric of the multiverse himself on multiple occasions without having similar amps. And nothing can really stop Wally from outright taking Sonic’s special tools from him or outlasting him through a battle of attrition.


Sonic can outrun time itself? WALLY OUTRAN THE BUTTFUCKING SPEED FORCE, THE LITERAL EMBODIMENT OF SPEED IN THE DC MULTIVERSE.


Archie Sonic is insane. Just, no questions about it, what this character can pull off is complete and utter insanity. But in the end, Wally’s got the power, the abilities, and the sheer speed needed to outrace even insanity. Simply put, there’s only one true Master of Faster in fiction, and by the end of this battle, Wallace Rudolph West is gonna run his opposition into the ground. In the end, apologies to those who hedged their bets on a DC win streak being broken, because your hopes were dashed. Do you have any commentary on your victory, Wally?



Astounding.

AkhilPDX


Talk about a requested fight. Flash VS Archie Sonic was on my list of wanted Death Battles and, not going to lie, the debate has been intense. To be completely fair, I’m still not 100% confident on who wins. I barely even know about Archie Sonic, but from what I’ve been shown by some of my friends, thanks Cyber and Phantom, I’ll try my best to give you guys my thoughts in the easiest and most broken down way possible. 


Stats: For starters, I do want to make it clear that I believe there are levels within the scope of “multiversal+” and “immeasurable” speed. This is fiction and especially in verses as complicated as DC, there’s going to be stuff that says “my infinity is bigger than yours”. 


Strength - Flash is a weird character with strength. He doesn’t exactly fit the scope of “strong” but guess what? He’s a herald tier character. Power comes with that. The faster Flash runs, the stronger his attacks become. You’ve heard of the infinite mass punch. By running at just under lightspeed, and with the correct vibrational frequencies, Flash’s fist gains the mass of a white dwarf star, hitting with the force of an exploding solar system. That’s cool, but the word infinite exists in it. No, no… I’m not about to pull a NLF or say Flash is outerversal or some BS, but it would put attacks like that on a high 3-A scale, or higher end universal. Flash can get up to uni+ as well, and that’s somewhere I’d put him consistently.


Sonic on the other hand… well, he’s somewhere around the universal range in base so pretty close to Flash but not quite. Super forms however… Sonic gets up to multiversal+ and to a good extent as well. Flash can also get to multiversal+ but in order to do so, he has to siphon the entire Speed Force or at least a large chunk of it. He could also work alongside some other speedsters to achieve feats on such a scale, but that’s not allowed in a Death Battle. They should be relatively equal though for the most part, but I am slightly more comfortable with giving the power advantage to Sonic… mostly since some of Wally’s higher end feats involve other speedsters either helping out, or there’s some weird context that waters down how impressive the feats truly are.


Durability - Scales to their strength. Flash can manipulate his density to become invulnerable (or to have durability on par with other heralds like Superman or Wonder Woman). Otherwise… Starting out, Sonic might have an advantage but Flash can surpass it up via density manipulation. once they’re in their higher states, they’re most likely equal.


Speed - If we’re going finite speed wise, Wally is faster by a noticeable bit. He gets to 1.5 vigintillion c or somewhere there while Sonic only gets into the octillions. Still impressive, but that’s nothing comparable to their best. They’ve both straight up run fast enough to neg time stopping or fast enough to run through time or past time. Time just doesn’t matter. I would say that Wally might be slightly faster though since he was able outrun the Speed Force itself which is just a bit more impressive considering how crazy the DC Cosmology is.



I’ve seen so much scaling for the Speed Force and it really is difficult to accurately say where it scales. Currently, it might be infinite dimensional / high hyperversal due to the Bleed containing all the dimensions in DC (and the Speed Force scales above the Bleed, separating it from the Sphere of the Gods which is a platonic and archetypal realm). However, before all that String Theory stuff, the Speed Force was treated as 5th dimensional for the most part as it was said to exist beyond the regular, universal ideas of space and time. I’ve seen similar scaling for the Chaos Force, and if that’s the case, well, they should both be relative. However, if we go off of the current DC Cosmology… the Speed Force would scale higher (a LOT higher).


Hax - Sonic has more hax and potentially more potent hax but Wally resists most of it, or more specifically, the Speed Force resists most of it. Flash also has some crazy hax of his own, such as BFR, sealing, vibrational manipulation, phasing, speed steal, density control, energy manipulation, healing, and cosmic awareness. From everything I’ve seen, Sonic can recover from the speed steal using his rings but if Flash continually does it, he’ll just keep gaining more and more speed. Sonic might also be vulnerable to vibrational manipulation and phasing considering Flash has some of the best phasing in the DC Universe. Potent enough to compare with Martian Manhunter himself. On that note however, Wally is also susceptible to Sonic’s reality warping. Fate hax would also make it far harder for Sonic to actually die, and that’s without factoring his invulnerability with Super Sonic.


So who do I think wins? Well, this is an extremely tough debate and like I said before, I barely know about Sonic so my apologies if I got anything wrong 😂😂😂. I do feel like Sonic is going to win this matchup and some instinct just says that it would be the correct outcome, but for now, I’m going to have to say Flash is the winner of this fight. He resists most of the hax where it matters most and in my opinion, he does have a pretty good speed advantage with a potential advantage if we factor in the complexities of their cosmologies. However, if Sonic ends up winning, I’d definitely be cool with that. Reality warping is a really good wincon and with his Super & Ultra forms, I can definitely see him win. Looks like Wally West is still going to be the fastest thing in the multiverse.


UPDATE: I do disagree with the fact that Wally could use the Speed Force if it’s destroyed. It exists throughout time as one so it’s more than likely that Wally can tap into it whilst in different time periods (even before the Speed Force technically existed), however, if the Speed Force is truly destroyed or Wally is cut off from it, he should, imo, be powerless. 

Clockboxxer

("Gee I wonder who Clock’s rooting for")


I bet this debate had the research team flip flopping more than Zuko vs Todoroki’s thumbnail


Speaking of, Zukoroki was...aight. I get the lesser emphasis on calculations, though numbers for comparison would’ve been nice at least. Ah, well. The analyses were entertaining and the fight, though awkward at points, was decent. Good outcome, yada yada yada. The best thing to come out of it is getting me to finally watch Avatar. Oh boy, why did I wait so long? Great show all around, tons of fun.


I sure do wonder what next time could be. Everyone theorized Flash vs Archie Sonic from the hints, but there’s no way they’d actually do that now-



Two times in a row these matchups seem like they would’ve happened next year or something.


I was pretty out of it when I first saw the reveal, but I’ve accepted it over time. Sonic is my favorite fictional character after all, and the Flashes are pretty up there. I’m just in it for how crazy the fight and reasoning are gonna get. 


This also marks the first time we see DB going out of their way to exclude the primary source material for a character in favor of an alternate counterpart. That’s pretty interesting.


Anyway, I’ve got quite a bit to talk about today, so I’m just gonna get into it.


Stats

The stats in this battle are fucking wild. To start, comparing them at their base forms, Wally has a definitive edge. He should be stronger, as Sonic caps in the Universal range. He should also be a lot faster, even if you attribute Sonic Man moving through the time stop to regular Sonic, who’s been stopped in time before. Regardless, this only becomes a crazy clusterfuck when you bring out the Super forms.


Now, the topic of Ultra Sonic being superior to Super Sonic. It doesn’t really matter, but Ultra Sonic has never been outright shown to be stronger than the golden transformation, but it can be argued by comparing how the forms are achieved. Regardless, this is a moot point, as both forms are likely in the same ballpark as each other. Sonic at his peak reaches up to Multiversal+, and gains a huge speed increase.


As for Wally, once he’s siphoned the entire Speed Force, he’ll be relative in power and durability to Super/Ultra Sonic, and likely even faster, since he can outrun the Speed Force. I know it seems insane to talk about higher degrees of immeasurability, but somehow Wally just...breaks that. 


Additionally, Wally’s high ends are more consistent than Sonic’s, given his longer history. I could go into things like dimensional tiering, but it probably won’t be the main focus of the fight anyway. The point is, when these two have reached their max, they’re either even or Wally just barely edges out.


Hax

Now THIS is the juicy discussion. Both of these characters are so loaded with abilities, and have seen a lot of shit in their time. They have perfect counters, resistances, many of the same abilities...


Things like afterimages, invisibility, forcefields, accelerated regeneration, cyclone creation, time manipulation, spatial manipulation, and molecular manipulation should cancel out. But of course, there are distinctions.


First up, phasing, or more broadly, vibrational manipulation. Simply put, Flash’s is objectively better. Sonic’s only phased through an object once, and he himself said it was dangerous. However, Wally and other Flashes do that kinda shit all the time pretty casually. They can also do much more with theirs, like disintegration, affecting large objects, and creating light clones to name a few. Wally can also nullify the phasing of others, rendering Sonic’s inferior ability useless. 


Then we move on to speed stealing, which is tricky in this debate. For one, I see no reason why speed stealing should be invalidated because Sonic isn’t governed by the Speed Force. Verse equalization exists and would be hella inconsistent with a bunch of other fights if it was passed off. 


Now, Sonic does have an answer to his speed getting stolen in base, which is restoring them with rings. However, this is not a passive ability, so Wally can still capitalize. 


Ultra Sonic may change things up, though. Ultra Sonic can be powered by rings, which lends to the argument that he should passively have the abilities of these rings, in this case, speed restoration. This helps, but I don’t believe it’s a total hard counter, since Wally can steal the speed of characters that should be able to defend against such a thing. All this is just gonna end up making Wally even faster, widening the gap. 


Now this is not to ignore Sonic’s own haxes, he’s got hype shit too. Most notably, the reality warping Chaos Control grants him. Flash doesn’t have anything quite as potent as that, and given the chance, it could take him out. This seems like a pretty good win condition for Maurice, though Wally has seen and combated similar warping before. 


And lastly, Sonic supposedly has some form of fate manipulation. However, it is something completely out of his control, and it’s clearly not infallible, as his record isn’t perfect. At best, it’s some minor plot armor. I don’t think it helps too much, but it’s there. 


Honestly, I think Wally’s own options are just overall better and easier to pull off than Sonic’s.


Speed Force and Chaos Force

Hoo boy.


It’s established that the Speed Force exists outside of the Bleed, which itself exists outside of the infinite DC multiverse. The Bleed should be a fifth-dimensional concept, and it’s described similarly to the Chaos Force, so I do believe the Speed Force should be superior. 


Aside from that, Wally has total control over the Speed Force. He can take all of its energy, move in and out of it as he pleases, and somehow retain his powers at points where it shouldn’t exist anymore. 


Sonic doesn’t quite have that much control over the Chaos Force. He’s overall more dependent on it as well. 


I think Wally barely edges out here as well.


Secondary Advantages

Things like training, experience, etc.


Wally is undisputedly more experienced, that much is painfully obvious. As for training, Wally’s learnt a lot from the speedsters before him, and his control over his powers is ludicrous as a result. As for Sonic, he’s not really formally trained to my knowledge. However, both these characters should have some knowledge on martial arts, especially since their brains work so damn fast. 


Summary

My bets are going to Wally West on this one.


Archie Sonic’s pulled off some of the craziest shit I’ve ever seen, but Wally just goes one step further with his speed and hax. He’ll take him out in a Flash. Too lazy to think of something original. 


Sonic’s my boy, so...not excited to see him die again. Hopefully the episode is a banger.


Phew. Working on this blog was exhausting. Can’t wait to get more relaxed stuff. See ya.


…


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Wait, is that a bonus batt-


Cyber

(damn bees)

Welcome to the fastest race on earth.. or any universe.


Today we have Archie Sonic vs. Wally West, commonly seen by individuals as some of the if not the fastest characters in fiction. My intent here is to do both characters Justice and do a comparison on what they both bring to the table against each other to determine the victor.


Both characters have displayed Universal levels of attack potency in their base forms (base for Wally is him using a smaller portion of the speed force, basically casual Wally).


IIl give some examples for dc and ap feats they scale to, in order of magnitude.


Sonic

1.Can fight Monkey Khan, who can consistently create thunderstorms

2. Directly generated enough energy to power Giga-Bot Prime, who has the destructive capability to level an entire mountain.

3.Capable of harming Silver, who withstood being hit with the entirety of Angel Island and is said to be capable of moving mountains with his mind

4. Matched the pull of the Quantum Dial, which could destroy a star system

5. Scales to base scourge, who likewise scales to or above Robolactus, who has planetary and solar system level statements.

6.Post reboot, scales to Chaos 0, who had the ability to control all oceans


Universal Stuff for AP 

  1. Sonic is consistently treated as relative to Knuckles. Knuckles has 5 statements of having the power of a chaos emerald in base form (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 )

  2. Sonic and Knuckles in base form have fought on par with chaos, while it had power from master emerald shards (comparable to chaos emeralds, if not stronger)

  3. Sonic defeated mogul empowered by a chaos emerald

  4. Chaos Emeralds have at least 14 statements of having infinite/limitless energy, and have shown universal feats individually.  (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14) 

Super Sonic


Destructive Capacity 

Scales to Super Scourge who states he can spin dash the planet in half

Easily could’ve caused two moons to collide in a super form

Destroyed an entire zone with knuckles


Attack Potency

Alongside Turbo Tails and Hyper Knuckles, he went against Master Mogul’s First Tenure. It should be noted that Master Mogul’s power is a notable portion of the Master Emerald, which would have been used to destroy infinite realities by Dr. Droid


Alongside Mega Man, they are able to take on God Sigma who was being empowered by an infinite amount of worlds, although Eggman and Wily had severed his tie to the Master Core not long after


Defeated solaris, who was destroying time and space


Would’ve undone the effects of the Super Genesis Wave and restored the multiverse had Eggman not intervened. Eggman stated that the Super Genesis Wave had no limits, and it even affected the Chaos Force. Sonic being interrupted by eggman during this collapses the infinite multiverse, and destroys it (Chaos Force was permanently erased as well).


Megaman was able to fix his multiverse, however.


The Multiverse is consistently treated as infinite.

The chaos force is a higher plane of reality, outside of space and time. The process of reaching it is consistently treated as transcending


Speed

For this section, I will be citing examples given by my friend ploz


Super form:

Hax

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/587331631732490253/621524439535976458/image0.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/602313541873303565/622465252784865280/image0.png

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/archiesonic/images/6/6d/0archie_madzone.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090726125112


Wally

AP/DC


Speed


hax


End Result

Both Sonic and Flash are comparable in attack potency and speed in their strongest States, with Wally only being somewhat faster when completely bloodlusted at full power due to out running the speed force itself.

In their base states Wally is somewhat stronger due to the size of a DC Universe he would scale to


Sonic however can even the difference with power rings. 

While Sonic does possess fate hax, all it necessarily does is make him harder to kill. He can however be defeated or flat-out be killed as shown with mephiles


Wally outright can neg sonic's phasing, or convert him into energy via the speed force, and can sense realityworks before they fully happen, so he can potentially interrupt sonics. it doesn't help that both worlds collide and worlds unite show that the Chaos Control reality warp has some downsides such as a small charge time and it may not work if reality is damaged enough


Due to the fact that Sonic is slightly slower and Wally has two ways to kill him I favor Wally


"credit to plozible for a major portion of this verdict"



Update:

Thought of adding this small comparison for speed feats 


Wally can move in stopped time (black flash and zoom)

Sonic as sonic man moved in a time stop


Ultra sonic can move time forward

Barry can move time forward and Wally scales


Sonic moved at incalculable speeds

Wally outran the speed force


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751816638994579456/ldbSiIJnKP7q2zwciZdkLwftOafwIzjTJ-fyvoFlpK8bngNNWCiErltuPnuUTsavZRBCFBFwDCZr8-IigZAe0c2fyF0fFM8Ma4CV.png


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751816639300894801/rQ5IAUYxEIYPqJfXKrSPTgJe07_CfTPUEMBizOHYeiD7ZU3C3gHlgISYRDn1p8yek3gbAeTgbZYGUO2Em-yspJLdmivP33hEIrD6.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751816639808405504/BHYnN1CVQDQZstDRMV3pNb1b0jMjoAN87mHwKpKdUhvZk2ZrRWmrLEpfDV-kgcRprpVa6xaY3sbBbqQN9hNPe53a2I2WmTH_b5Wy.png


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751816640378699877/RCO017.png


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751816641179943042/RCO016.png


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/746796722172199023/751818170444152883/latest-7.png


Barry was able to use the speed force even before creation existed, which should have been impossible


Likewise, Wally can still use the speed force at the literal end of time

This suggests that even if sonic somehow deleted the speed force, Wally can still use its power


Phantom Falcon

(Haru good. I love Haru)


K, so Wally vs Archie Sonic. This’ll be fun


Starting off with stats, Wally is around multiversal via various herald feats in DC of destroying the DC universes. Given its size of 100 trillion light years in radius, destroying it requires much more energy than destroying our own universe. So pretty good stuff. On the highest end, by siphoning all the energy from the Speed Force, Wally is strong enough to tear apart Anti-Monitor’s armor, something not even the goddamn Spectre could do. That’s insane, and it gives Wally multiversal+ AP. As for Sonic, he has some universal feats in his base form, but he gets outclassed pretty badly given that nothing suggests a massive universe size the same as DC’s. However, when Sonic goes Super form, oh man is it wild. Dude can neutralize the Super Genesis Wave with Chaos Control, which was destroying the infinite multiverse of Archie Sonic, so that’s easily mutliversal+ AP. Basically, Wally starts out with AP, but Sonic will gain the advantage later on, and at their absolute highest, they would be roughly even. Speed is also tricky. At their base level, they’re easily far above your regular MFTL+ feats, easily reaching into the quintillions and even octillions times faster than light, and they get even more crazy at their highest, since Sonic Man, who Super Sonic is superior to, was capable of moving during a time stop. However, Wally goes...a bit beyond that. Y’know, considering how he outran the Speed Force. This man literally outran the fucking embodiment of speed itself. DC is fucking stupid. While both of these could technically classify as infinite or immeasurable speed feats, I think Wally’s own feat scales much higher than that overall, and there are other arguments for immeasurable speed heralds like Superman outrunning infinity.


So, AP/Dura is even, and Wally has a speed edge, though not necessarily a...massive one I guess you can say. So at that point, let’s go over their abilities/hax. I don’t want to go in depth so I’ll talk about the hax that matters most, since they both resist a good chunk of each other's abilities. For Sonic, his 2 greatest hax are the 1 Billionth Power Ring and his reality warping. The 1 Billionth Power Ring is a very vital tool for Sonic, as it gives him a passive aura that gives him minor fate hax. That said, I can’t really say I agree with Sonic having fate hax, as it can easily be chalked up to hyperbole, but even if it were true, it’s incredibly minor, as it only makes him harder to kill, not unkillable. The big tool however is his reality warping. Considering how that stuff was capable of erasing the Chaos Force, a 5D plane, it could very well kill Wally and even destroy the Speed Force. There is, however, a lot of contention on whether or not it will work. See, DC cosmology has the Speed Force at a higher dimension than The Bleed, which is also a 5D plane. So basically Speed Force is above the Chaos Force, which means its unlikely Sonic’s reality warping has the range or power to destroy such a massive dimension. Meanwhile, Wally has phasing potent enough to outphase Martian Manhunter, who has resisted molecular manipulation before, he can BFR him to the Speed Force, which will transmutation and turn Sonic into energy, while the One Billionth Power Ring could resist the speed steal, Wally’s speed steal is so broken that even that’s iffy, and Sonic will have a hard time putting Wally down since he can regenerate from vapor and having his atoms destabilized, as shown with Barry.


So basically I’m going Wally here. It’s a very close fight, and Sonic’s reality warping and AP will give Wally the fight of his life, but Wally’s greater speed, better overall abilities, star amps, and the Speed Force possibly resisting the reality warp makes me believe the Scarlet Speedster will win this fight. Shorter verdict this time around but everyone else did a better job explaining this fight than I did so lol


Wally is also way hotter like holy shit


Js250476

Remember when you were reading Archie’s Sonic the Hedgehog and it became about Knuckles the jesus figure with a long convoluted line of echidna OC’s as a family, love drama with Tails getting slapped Sally bitch slapping Sonic, turning Sonic into a worm design in the art, made Tails become a steroid induced buff fox, interfered with the writers work and completely destroyed all the cool characters and plot lines you wanted to see finished? IT WAS ME BARRY I WROTE ARCHIE SONIC PRE IAN FLYNN, I INSPIRED THE TITLE FOR AVENGERS ENDGAME, I INVENTED THE CONCEPT OF STORYTELLING. I GIVE GOD PERMISSION TO LET THERE BE LIGHT I AM KEN PENDERS 


Now that that’s out of the way Zuko vs Todoroki was a great episode turned out exactly as many hoped and gave a unique verdict for the current season by not even including any calcs but once that next time came up oh boi few were prepared to be hit by this monster of a matchup this quickly.


So Archie Sonic vs Wally West an interesting and epic idea to tackle for sure, taking the most iconic and fastest speedsters around and having them go head to head is a exciting concept not to mention it’s the first time DB has ever focused on a specific version of a previously established character for a episode and with the sheer insanity of Archie Sonic it’s sure to create one of the most logic defying and over the top episodes yet and it created a equally interesting debate for who comes in first place in this spectacular clash of speed also really helps Archie Sonic at it’s best was a blast to read (bless Ian Flynn) and Wally is the best Flash in terms of character, charisma, and pure speed so this is definitely something that’ll get people invested.


So starting out with Attack Potency we’re dealing with some ridiculously powerful cosmic tiers for both speedsters. Starting off with Sonic he has feats mainly from scaling to the chaos emeralds which have done things like create zones (aka universes depending on the zone) implied to destroy entire universes, destroy or recreate entire dimensions Ect, so it’s clearly in the zone of universal at least and Sonic has on multiple occasions taken hits from super form level threats like Evil Super Sonic and Super Scourge and he’s shown to be comparable to characters who are living chaos emeralds such as Knuckles. With Super Sonic things get cranked up to infinity when you take into account Chaos Control. In Sonic and Mega Man Worlds Collide Sonic and Mega Man attempted to use chaos control on the Super Genesis Wave in order to restore their multiverses, Mega Man successfully restored his while Sonic got interrupted by Eggman accidentally remaking his whole multiverse in a way he did not intend. Most notably this remake completely removed the Chaos Force from existence, a realm of infinite energy that encompasses the entire infinite multiverse and exists outside of space and time so needless to say that’s some really broken reality warping also consistent with fighting multiversal beings such as Solaris and Sigma.


Wally’s no less lacking in this regard he’s seen his fair share of multiversel destroying cosmic beings such as DC’s cosmic retconning destroyer himself The Anti-Monitor and completely shattering his outer armor (though not his entire being) the same being that caused the destruction of the entire infinite DC multiverse and not to mention the times he’s literally threatened to destroy the entire multiverse himself just by running or can empower himself with the entire Speed Force itself a realm that encompasses the entire multiverse and has literal infinite energy. Add that with the other powerhouses he’s contended with such as Superman, Green Lantern, Reverse Flash Ect it’s pretty clear Wally has 66 multiversel outliers is packing something serious power.


Now when we get into the reason this match exists and why you’re all here speed and these 2 are some of the fastest characters in existence we’re talking potentially beyond measurement fast enough to break all speed records infinite times over.


Now Sonic has pulled off feats like gathering and forming a ball of water in a zeptosecond, run across a multiversal spanning interstate, run across every planet in the universe in a few minutes and even outran time itself. Now as insane as those sound Wally’s is even more mind numbing. He’s blitzed just about every DC superhero you can think of who are ridiculously fast themselfs, rescued 500 thousand people from a nuke in 0.00001 microseconds, outran the implosion of an entire universe, ran to the end of time and outraced the Black Flash aka death itself for speedsters, somehow beat him own past self in a race, outran literal instantaneous teleportation (with the help of kinetic energy from a whole planet), is outright called the fastest being in the whole multiverse, and outran the Speed Force itself, the literal source of all speed in DC. Sonic’s fast no doubt about it but no matter what you use for him or how generous you are with some feats it’s clear as day Wally takes the chilly dog in speed no matter what. 


Then we get into the main source of discussion about their abilities and hax. 

Both of them share a lot of the same abilities and potential counters to each other Wally can steal speed and Sonic is able to restore it with rings albeit Wally can still gain speed from him and could potentially drain him like a battery til Sonic is a sitting duck. Sonic can trap someone in The Zone of Silence but Wally has dimensional travel and can escape with no issues. Both are able to phase through matter but Wally’s is more versatile and useful then Sonic’s as he can do it with much greater ease and accomplish more with it on top of being able to counter others phasing outright. Wally can stop time and Sonic’s been affected by such in base form before but scaling from Sonicman no selling a time stop via sheer speed Super Sonic at the very least should be capable of the same thing. Ultra Sonic is able manipulate matter but Speed Force users can resist that as shown when Barry literally rearranged his molecules to literally come back from water vapor and even atomization and Wally should be capable of the same due to having all of Barry’s abilities.


Now the most interesting comparison is Wally is able to BFR beings into the speed force itself and convert them entirely into energy. Sonic has shown some resistance via scaling to Mogul resisting the egg grapes draining his energy and soul and maintaining his physical form from being dissipated as well as Super Sonic being immune to Enerjak who can erase people on a atomic level but it’s questionable if he can resist something as grand a scale as The speed force.


Now addressing Sonic’s trump card if he can warp away The Speed Force with Chaos control. Well to put it simply while it is true Sonic was able to warp away his infinite multiverse Chaos Force included The Speed Force is far more powerful and complex then anything Sonic has effected. In addition to encompassing the infinite multiverse it’s above the Bleed in DC’s cosmology map which is a 5th dimensional plane of existence and yes DC does treat higher spatial dimensions as infinitely superior to low dimensional realities (Mister Mxyzptlk is living proof of that) meaning it’s unlikely Sonic could erase the Speed Force if he attempted to do so. And even if he could Wally can sense when someone is attempting to warp reality and has resisted massive cosmic reboots such as Flashpoint so nothing is really stopping him from just interrupting or preventing Sonic from trying this especially when Eggman proves this is something that can be done.


In the end this is definitely one of the closest fights done yet and I can see either side reasonably winning but via having greater speed, better abilities in some areas, connected to a more powerful force of cosmic power, and cause it’s the Speed Force I ain’t gotta explain shit I ultimately see Wally coming out on top more often than not 

Sonic put up a stellar fight and had a great run but Wally West flashes past the blue blur and takes the victory lap!


That is until Road Runner and Speedy Gonzales kill them both tbh.


Kevineitor

Well, I hadn't thought of this Match-up before, but since it was announced I've been into it too much. I've been hearing and seeing a lot of things related to Speed in the last few days, and after seeing and learning everything there is to know about the two, I'm going to make my verdict.


Okay, I'll start with her special abilities or Hax; They both have multiple Hax that could cancel each other out. But Sonic has two advantages over Wally's two Big Hax, Wally can steal speed and stop time, for any other opponent that would be a victory, but Sonic can regain stolen speed and he is faster than stopped time. So Sonic has the upper hand on Hax.


Okay, now let's see with physical strength, both can improve their strength with their speed, but Wally has shown more strength feats than Sonic has done in his basic form, Super Sonic and Ultra Sonic can put Sonic at the same Level as Wally, but comparing the two; Wally has the advantage of the two.


Now durability, Sonic has survived many great things, but Wally has shown capable of putting his molecules back out of nowhere, that is impressive, another Point for Wally.


The reason why I do not mention anything about speed is because it is literally impossible to measure the speed of both, they are capable of being faster than infinite concepts, their speeds go beyond the concept of speed that mortals have... So I won't touch that. It was already too much that my first prediction was against two literal GODS, so I'll leave that to others on the blog.


Okay, now my prediction. I thought that Sonic had this in the bag, he had that thought when making this prediction, but seeing everything that Wallt has, I believe that Wally West will win this battle, even if he fights against Sonic's super forms.


Now, I know many in the community are sick of DC characters and DC Victories in Death Battle, I don't have a problem with that, but for those who do, don't complain, maybe Sonic can win this, I'm not 100% sure of my verdict, I read the blog multiple times and I'm still not sure, but I think this is like Doctor Strange VS Doctor Fate, both characters are ridiculously powerful and it was the little things that gave Fate the victory, and I think Wally has the enough little things to win this battle; Looks like Wally West will take away the title of The Fastest Thing Alive from Sonic.


Ninten

Hi mom


I'd like to preface this by admitting that I am not the greatest expert on either characters, nor have I read each and every comic involving them. However, what I have done is read issues that carry a lot of discourse among the community, and have been involved in multiple debates about this matchup stretching an entire year. Additionally, I have a lot of talented friends that HAVE gone through a much more detailed analysis of these characters, and I trust in their abilities, though I can still form my own opinions for myself. I've just been pretty busy with o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶n̶d̶b̶u̶l̶l̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶e̶r̶t̶i̶s̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶u̶f̶f̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶I̶. What I'm trying to say is that while I believe others are a better source for information than I am, I have a basic grasp of this debate, and I'd like to add my thoughts. 


My first point is rather minor, but given what this matchup is like and how they arguably counter and negate so many of their abilities, I felt it was worth pointing out. Wally has practically objectively better phasing. I have only seen one instance of Sonic phasing, in which he was only able to do it for a moment and noted how it was extremely dangerous. Wally on the other hand, not only does this far more often and more casually, but can also neutralize this effect, does it against with MMH, vibrates through a field designed to block his vibrations, can do this, and can phase through the fourth dimension, with an alternate version of Wally performing the same feat. 


One of the things there has been a lot of debate about is how the speed steal will affect Sonic. Basically, Sonic managed to negate the effects of an anti inertia field that would sap away his speed. Super Sonic could also theoretically perform the same feat without the usage of rings. The main argument against this was that Walt could either continuously use Sonic as a battery and keep stealing his speed, or he would take that one instance of Sonic being massively slower to do something. However, since this was a continuous field of speed stealing, people started to drop the argument for Wally, but I'm not quite so sure it is completely useless. 


For starters, you must recognize that while this ability can become passive once Sonic uses it, it is not generally passive. If Wally were to decide to steal his speed, Sonic wouldn't know what he is doing and would have no way to defend it in the beginning. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had his speed stolen in the first place. This will still offer Wally a major advantage at one point in the fight. And on the point of Super Sonic, while he theoretically does have all the powers the rings could possess, I don't think I'd reliably side with this being always active for him, given how Super Sonic is never actually shown doing this. 


For the cherry on top, it might not be able to resist Wally's speed steal at all. Speedsters with a deep connection to the speed force such as Wally can resist having their speed stolen and Wally is able to speed steal other speed force users, so it might be possible for Wally to bypass speed stealing resistances. 


Speed isn't something I plan to touch on for very long, since I expect others to do a better job at explaining it, but I might as well explain my thoughts here as well. I agree with the sentiment that infinite/immeasurable speed Wally is far more consistent and reliable than Sonic's, but it literally doesn't matter since Death Battle is accepting that speed for Sonic regardless. If you accept both to be at this level of speed regardless, then whichever one is more "consistent" will be pointless once it comes to the actual fight. However, Wally can also go beyond immeasurable speed itself and the concept of speed, as he was able to move faster than the speed force itself (Nemesis's engine analogy was very apt). This, along with the fact that Wally can slow Sonic down, even if for a moment, would in my mind give him the speed "edge" (although it isn't a very conventional way to have a speed advantage). 


Now here comes the big kahoona, the speed force BFR and energy absorption. Wally West has the ability to trap someone within the speed force, and the speed force will then absorb their energy entirely. Sonic has the ability to escape BFR, however the speed force is much more difficult for a BFR to escape than just plopping Sonic into another dimension. Super Sonic should also scale to Megaman with the Chaos Force, who managed to negate the Super Genesis Wave, and theoretically, this has been used to support the idea that Sonic could neutralize the Speed Force. 


The Speed Force is comparable in it's expansive range to The Bleed, which exists as the bulk of space containing the DC multiverse, which exists in the fifth dimension. Yeah, I know, scary dimensional tiering and all, but higher spatial dimensions being qualitatively superior to lower dimensions is definitely a thing that has been implemented in DC many times before, and it can be argued that this example of the fifth dimension is far more egregious than simple string theory. This is a much stronger force than anything Sonic has faced before, I don't think he can simply warp it away. Also, don't forget how Wally can channel the entirety of the speed force to amp his strength. 


There are a couple counter arguments to Sonic being absorbed into energy. First is how Eggman was able to neutralize Ixis's ability to turn things into crystalline with the power rings. I don't see the logic for this, to be honest. Petrification is far different from energy absorption and is not equatable, plus it was implied to be a result of the number of rings, and by effect energy, he has. 


However I do think there are better arguments to support Sonic resisting this effect. Mogul with a chaos emerald is able to resist the effects of the egg chamber, and the egg grapes drain one's life force and uses them for energy. The rings also helped Mogul resist having his physical form dissipated, and Enerjak is unable to destroy Super Sonic, despite being able to completely erase someone. These examples might be able to suggest that Sonic would be able to resist his physical form being dispersed into energy like that, however there are a couple problems. 


Savitar, who is a speed force user, was absorbed into the speed force. Speed Force users are able to survive and resist similar things, and I'd imagine that the Speed Force absorption would be as strong as the dimension itself, which should bypass other resistances out of sheer power output, and if not, Sonic would be trapped there until he runs out of super sonic and rings, to where he definitely wouldn't have any resistances to being absorbed into the speed force. 


One last thing I'd like to talk about before giving my verdict is Sonic's fate hax and the one billionth power ring. I think that this ability is actually more credible than some people think. While it may just be a defensive ability, it is still a thing that exists and will give Sonic a huge edge in certain moments in the fight. Though I would agree that saying Sonic would just not die as a result is highly presumptive, and since Sonic '06 did happen in the Archie continuity, that means Sonic also DID die before. 


Also, as a side note, Wally probably doesn't need to use all this fancy energy absorption and BFR stuff to win. He could probably just beat Sonic to death if he wanted to by just punching him really hard. 


I'm going to be blunt, I might be a bit biased towards Wally. I was a massive Sonic turd when I was really young, yet I can't find myself rooting for him. Maybe that is partially because of someone who soured my taste in archie sonic winning this match up (you know who you are), maybe it is also because I desperately want the tinfoil for this episode to just die, and maybe it's because the flash is my favorite DC Super hero. I agree with the logic that has Wally West winning this matchup, but I have a hard time picturing Death Battle saying that in an episode, and every comment from "official" people I have seen seems to either suggest hyping Archie Sonic up a lot or implying that Wally isn't really all that. 


I think that it is important to distinguish between who we think should win and who we think will win. I'm not saying this to look down upon the researchers, mind you. They are phenomenal, and did far more extensive research and discussion than I have. I'm sure whatever answer they have (if Sonic does win) for the bleed stuff will be something that is at the bare minimum adequate. I have a lot of confidence and respect for them, is my point, and almost every time a debate has been close before a death battle they will bring up something that changes the direction of the entire debate. 


So, if I believe Sonic will win and I believe Wally should win, who do I vote for? I've kind of wavered on this dilemma in the past, and I've done both before. My winning streak goes way back to season 5 where the last episode I got wrong was Carnage vs Lucy. In that time, I've learned that it is always better to go with your brain than your gut. The only time I didn't do this was for Deadpool vs Mask when I was the only guy who thought Deadpool could win (with canon material), but come on. That was already pretty obvious that the mask will win, and at one point I think they flat out confirmed that the cartoon for the mask was not contradictory. If it's going to go out, I'd rather it be to a close matchup defending one of my favorite comic book Superheroes. Also, I feel it would be a little dishonest of me to go back on everything I have said so far and just say Sonic wins because I have a gut feeling he does. 


Run, Wally, Run


UPDATE: It has come to my attention that Martian Manhunter has resisted molecular manipulation. As previously established, Wally was able to use his molecular manipulation to solidify MMH when he was intangible. This proves that Wally, and by effect the speed force, can bypass Sonic's molecular manipulation resistance. 

BangJang96

Showtime.

First off, I’d like to thank everyone else on the team for allowing me to be here, this is such an awesome experience and it's even more amazing that people came to me and asked me to come to this team to talk about this fight. So very excited to talk about all of this!

    Not gonna lie, the timing of this episode is very prophetic for me. I wrote Sonic vs the Flash (though I used a different Flash) on the Death Battle Fanon Wiki the night before it was revealed to first members. My hype is off the charts. Whether you know me or not, the people who do know me know that I have talked about this match-up very very VERY frequently. Its what got me into debating in the first place, I was just a dumb 12 year old who watched Flash get murdered by Sonic in the One Minute Melee and thought “wait what” and I kickstarted a (not so grand) grand adventure to research the match to see if the Flash wins, since at the time Flash was becoming my favorite DC superhero due to the show. That being said...what do I think about this match-up? Has my opinion changed? That's what I’m gonna talk about. 

There is quite possibly a lot to ask yourself about this match-up that it makes someone's head spin. Like a LOT. Questions like how high does the Speed Force scale dimension-wise? Does Sonic scale to Godhood Mammoth Mogul, God Sigma-3, and Avatar/Knuckles Enerjak? Can Sonic replicate the Super Genesis Wave feat on the Speed Force? Does Wally have resistance to existence erasure/reality warping? The list goes on, there's so many amazing yet existentially terrifying angles that this fight reaches, arguably more deeper then even bigger fights like Joker vs Giorno. So let’s get the basic stats out of the way, the ones that aren’t really deciding factors.


Strength/Durability: Arguably, it's relatively dead even when you first start out, Base and Super Sonic alike in this case. I’ll try to refrain from mentioning hax too much so I can save it for the hax section, though some of it will come down to hax. So one of Wallys’ biggest feats that I feel I should bring up first is the Flash War race feat. Barry and Wally run so fast, they are affecting multiple planes of reality, including but not limited to the Fourth World, the Microverse, the winds of Earth (not a plane of reality), and the Green, a metaphysical realm connected to all separate timelines of Creation, with Cyborg noting that they are wreaking havoc with the fabric of the entire Multiverse, and I would bring up Sonics Super Genesis Wave feat, but that attunes to more of hax, which I will have to go over later. Wally has also staggered and physically overwhelmed Superman in Rebirth, 

And if you don’t think its consistent, Wally does indeed scale to Barry, who has casually pummeled Daxamites, beings who are stated to be as strong as this same version of Superman. And he was able to casually knock out Mongul, another Superman-level threat. The Infinite Mass Punch itself is also relatively good for striking power, as it was able to knock out a White Martian clean, and those guys can shrug off attacks from Orion. Theres plenty more but I gotta cover Sonic too, so I’ll put the cherry on top by bringing up Wally shitting on the Anti-Monitors’ armor, tearing it apart. And we all know what dear old Anti-Monitor did...

Now lets talk about Sonic. Base Sonic is relatively weaker then Wally I might say but isn’t too far off, and even then Death Battle won’t allow a speed-blitz before Sonic can reach Super, but Base Sonics still good on his own, but Super Sonic has a more plentiful. From destroying twin Moons    to busting planets while fighting Enerjak, albeit in terms of destructive capacity feats, Sonic himself doesn’t have too many direct ones. Base Sonic can be anywhere from Mountain level to Solar System level, Super Sonic is roughly about baseline universal via scaling off of Hyper Knuckles and various avatars of Enerjak (and in terms of hax yes I do believe they are Multi+). In terms of durability, I got some thoughts on this. Most commonly I hear that if its a slug-out that Sonic can one shot Flash, but to be honest I stand by that he doesn’t, and its mostly because obviously he hardly gets hit and when he does, its typically by people on his level and even then, I’m fairly certain he should be fine. Considering even when he was getting relatively gruesomely harmed by Cheetah, he casually just siphoned energy off of her via the Speed Force and was visibly normal (granted Sonic probably won’t kiss Flash haha jk unless), so I don’t know where the stigma of hit and run comes from, don’t get me wrong hes definitely more worried about hitting fast then tanking hits, but I don’t see it as someone breathes on him and he fucking dies. Hell, he literally survived running to the end of the universe and fit himself through the “pinprick” that is the infinite singularity that is the Big Crunch, effectively withstanding the implosion of the universe. Even at a low end they’re pretty similar in durability, Sonic tanking 20,000 volts of electricity, and Wally tanking 50,000 volts of electricity. Plus obviously if he is taking substantial damage, the Speed Force can more than likely level the playing field in this case considering the home field advantage is huge, but I’ll get into that later.


Speed: On the contrary, even if this is the defining trait of both characters, it is by no means the end all be all here, though I feel it necessary to go over it. For starters, I do think Wally's feats outweigh Sonics. Not only does he have more speed feats but he also just has better speed feats. I’d start by comparing their best speed feats. Sonics best three are as followed; the first one being the famous feat where he throws water in .0000000000001 milliseconds, and for comparison Wally has numerous reaction feats that are in septoseconds, less than plank time itself, picoseconds, microseconds, nanoseconds, the list goes on. And I’d like to bring up a comparison, albeit it probably won’t be mentioned in the episode because I’m fairly assuming that the plank time feat will be considered “an amp”, but even then I can explain why Wally can do it normally later but regardless; Martian Manhunter was able to cast Perpetua out of his mind, operating from nanoseconds to zeptoseconds to plank times. So as we know, a zeptosecond is one sextillionth of a second. His mind was able to move from nanoseconds to plank times. So, lets draw some comparisons shall we? Wally should indeed scale to Barry, who as we all know can process events in less than an attosecond. Now now, I know this feat is overused to HELL and back and I agree, but I’d say its important because we need to see how far the scaling goes as to how fast ones reaction/fighting speed can get, and hes just a prominent example amongst other characters who have done similar things. Another example would be Superman. He can start/operate at nanoseconds, and even jump from femtoseconds to attoseconds. What I’m saying is, Wally can relatively reach plank time faster then Manhunter could, considering that he had to start from nanoseconds to do it, whereas Barry can start from less than an attosecond and get to plank time MUCH faster then Manhunter can do it. And if you don’t wanna scale Wally to that, I don’t see why he can’t scale to Superman, who can start from femtoseconds, which is one quadrillionth of a second. Plus Wally himself can start from nanoseconds too, in a broader scheme of things, Wally can reach much higher reaction speeds then Sonic ever could. Oh and obviously, the plank time feat played a big part in the so-called outrunning teleportation feat, but let me just say, Wally should be able to just do it normally as of Rebirth. 


Yeah. This feat. Running faster then light, thought, and the Speed Force itself. On paper that makes no sense but given DCs entire interpretation of infinite speed and the stuff other speedstersThe next feat is the Sonic being able to visit every planet in the universe in just a few seconds before dinner. The problem is the best assumption one can make is that the Sonic universe is as big as our own, and by comparison Wallys feats that are similar to this are much , better. He can literally run fast to where Pre-Crisis heroes such as Superman view him as invisible, and Pre-Crisis Superman is someone who can cross the universe in minutes and the Multiverse in seconds. And considering he can blitz characters like Superman normally, and scales to Barry, who can search the Moon in a fraction of an instant and the solar system and beyond within a short amount of time. Pretty comparable stuff if you ask me. And the last feat is him and Hyper Knuckles moving at incalculable speeds towards each other. Ok I’m not gonna lie, this feat has always confused me. One, they’re right next to each other? Unless theres some other interpretation of how fast they’re going when they’re about to clash, it feels vague. And I should note that they did bend space and time after the clash. Wallys done something similar, as mentioned before, his speed was playing havoc with the Multiverse in the Flash War and considering the end result was breaking open the Force Barrier, which was concealing six other forces in the Multiverse, its pretty similar to Sonics feat. So in the end, I think Wally takes speed by a landslide. Even something as basic as Sonic being able to box his own shadow has a counter too, because Flash beat up his shadow just the same in fact. But the thing is like I said, speed also won’t be the deciding factor. 


Hax: This is where things get pretty...extreme. I’m not gonna say who wins this section per say since they both have a LOT of counters to each others hax so I’m simply going to be going over their hax individually and draw the comparisons in the next section. So for Sonic...hoo boy where do I start? Lets get the Power Rings out of the way. These things are pretty nifty, being able to casually restore Sonics speed from being stolen, increase age, dimensionally travel, give Sonic wisdom or knowledge, etc. Then things start to get a little more interesting in regards to the One Billionth Power Ring, which is the value that Sonic was able to get too and one that the Ancient Walkers deemed as unachievable by anyone else yet. With this ring comes an aura around him, and that leads us into his fate manipulation. Now this is where I’m gonna start inserting my skepticism and beliefs about these feats. I’m not really adamant on the idea that fate manipulation is entirely that much of a huge degree of hax so much as it is a moderate one. The two statements from Mogul and Eggman suggest that Sonics fate is aligned to not lose, which is sorta the case. In actuality Mogul was cursed to lose to Sonic by the Ancient Walkers, granted the curse was broken once Mogul killed the Ancient Walkers. And considering that lots of characters in Archie comics also function under the Chaos Force, even the Ancient Walkers, its not a stretch at all to assume the people who use it aren’t unable to lose a fight, considering Chaos Knuckles lost, Naugus has lost, etc. And of course the Ultimate Annihilator feat is a big advocate for fate manipulation, but theres a catch to that too; Sonic himself wasn’t in any danger, and it was confirmed that the machine was only programmed to target Robotnik and Sonic himself wasn’t in any notable danger, and the encyclopedia confirms he along with Mobius blipped out and back into existence when this happened. And considering that even after he came back he needed medical attention, it seems pretty likely that the fate hax is pretty minimal. And of course, Super and Ultra Sonic also exist. 

Hey look its this feat! Lets jump right into it since most of you know how Super Sonic itself works, albeit I’ll also go over the emeralds too. So this feat right here, the Super Genesis Wave feat. It shattered Sonics Multiverse, which has numerous statements confirming the universes/Multiverse are infinite, with confirmation that the wave did collapse the Multiverse. That should put Archies hax at Multiversal+ going by all of this. Super Sonic can also increase Sonics speed by a thousandfold, fight on par with Enerjak who also draws from the same power source that allows him to atomize people/erase them from existence. Then we get to Ultra Sonic. Essentially a Super Sonic with more haxes, but not too notable. He can still fly, mentally control elements such as Earthly substances or ice and open portals to BFR people into the Zone of Si-actually, technically not anymore. The Zone of Silence technically doesn’t even exist anymore according to the encyclopedia. And also I should say that Ultra Sonic can’t be used for long and can quickly burn out Sonic, so it would be all or nothing once he goes Ultra. And he can also phase through solid objects. Now we get to the Flashes hax. The first one I wanna bring up is Speed Steal. This has been one of the big ones for a long time, and for good reasons. Its not just being able to simply steal speed from others to make them slow, Wallys best showing of speed steal was able to outright immobilize Inertia, making him conscious but still, unable to move, and takes a century to even blink. Nice. But before you say that he can only do it to Speed Force speedsters, that would inherently be false. Wally himself has claimed he can steal Supermans’ speed, and Jay Garrick outright proves this by doing it himself. Wally can also use intangibility to a surprisingly nice degree, considering that phasing too hard as an adult made objects explode. His best showing of intangibility arguably is him being able to prevent Martian Manhunter from turning intangible by vibrating J’onn’s molecules back into a solid form. He can also use this as a way to go into other dimensions as a form of dimensional travel, His regeneration/healing is also pretty nifty too, being able to regenerate from water vapor and should have the same type as Barry, and can control his molecules to the same degree as his former mentor. Now to talk about the hax to end all hax; the Speed Force!

Yeah, we’re gonna need this map if I’m gonna go over the Speed Force. See the glowing ring around the Multiverse? That right there is the Speed Force, a metaphysical realm of infinity energy that is the haven, the realm of literal speed that exists above space, time, the Multiverse, the time, light, and sound barriers, the timestream, and even the Bleed, which is a fifth dimensional plane of existence containing the Orrery of Worlds and every dimension in existence, as well as residing above the Multiverse itself, which is consistently confirmed to be an infinite Multiverse. This is how Wally and other speedsters can perform all of the crazy, versatile shenanigans they’ve done over the years. He can take his opponents into this Speed Force and weaponize it to his advantage, as well as enter/exit it consistently and normally whenever he wants too, which is supported by when he was able to go into the Speed Force to pull Barry out of it after his apparent return. But what can he do inside the Speed Force? Good question. Not only is he able to channel an infinite amount of energy from it to boost his power, but he can also just use it as a form of prison or just end all be all, as shown when Savitar was taken into the Speed Force just to be completely absorbed by its overwhelming power. Dang. And arguably with this Speed Force boost he could theoretically perform other feats that other Flashes have done, such as when Bart Allen literally absorbed the entirety of it into himself, and with that power was able to slug it out with Superboy-Prime, who can casually affect the universe with his retcon punches and clown the fucking Anti-Monitor (albeit Sinestro Corps version is vastly weaker then CoIE). The last hax I’d like to cover is the Infinite Mass Punch, one of the oldest tricks in the book. Invented by Barry, yes but Wally was the first one to use this amazing punch and was able to knock out a White Martian, with the force of a Whtie Dwarf Star, with increased mass the more he approaches the speed of light. The context of this makes it seem like its only a solar system busting attack, but it can theoretically go far beyond that, as evidenced by when Jenni Ognats also tried to reach more mass with her speed, and the ending result was going to be creating a singularity and tearing the universe in half. So yeah, they’ve both got versatility. To the max. Now onto how these hax counter each other since I believe that is the biggest deciding factor…


Counters to Hax, & Counter Hax That Counter Hax: I’m gonna be drawing various comparisons here since theres lots of hax that are similar and interact with each other in some pretty nifty ways. We’ll start off simple and work our way up to the hax/counter hax that in my opinion are the largest deciding factor, granted there won’t be too many since the last one is probably the biggest one of all.

Time Stopping: Both of them have been shown to not only be able to stop or rewind time with their respective powers, and they both have the ability to move time forward (Wally should scale to this assuming he can run fast enough to where his lightning aura is white) so they essentially cancel each other out in this respective regard and can both casually resist it too. 

Intangibility: Both have been proven to be able to use intangibility to go right through objects, though Wally actively counters Sonics ability to do that. Remember how I mentioned that Wally reverted the Martian Manhunter back to solid? Well considering that Sonic has said phasing himself is a dangerous move for him to do, and the fact that Wally if he doesn’t control his phasing he can literally make whatever hes phasings molecules explode, its safe to say Wally wins here.

Speed Force BFR vs. Power Rings BFR: So both of these characters have battlefield removal options, Wally being able to send opponents into the Speed Force and Sonic being able to use Power Rings to cast opponents into other dimensions such as the Special Zone. Neither is really ‘better’ per say than the others but in terms of how they send people there, Wally could probably outrun the gravitational pull of a portal opening up to take him somewhere else and even if he couldn’t he can vibrate into other dimensions to escape with ease, and Sonic can use rings to open portals to other Zones as well. So they both theoretically have ways of escaping each other's BFR options, so they also cancel each other out. 

Speed Steal vs. One Billionth Power Ring: This next ones a bit odd. For the longest, and I do mean LONGEST time, the general consensus for Flash winning this fight was because speed steal can bypass all of Sonics durability via immobilization, boom dead. Fast forward to the present...it's complicated. Technically speaking Wally can still steal Sonics speed, but the Power Rings are a great tool that can restore Sonics speed after it was stolen. However, the way he had his speed stolen was a bit more different then the way Wally himself can use it at its max abilities; in the scan, Sonic was able to move freely but he couldn’t run his normal running speed, and lost momentum entirely. On the other hand, Wally literally turned Inertia into a conscious statue upon stealing all of his speed. Obviously, Sonic will have the Power Rings on him at all times, but in the time span that Wally could perform this feat on Sonic, Wally has two options; Kick ‘em while hes down considering he can’t do anything before the Rings effects kick in, or if the Rings do kick in, continuously steal his speed as if he was a battery. So technically speaking Sonic CAN make it so speed steal isn’t the end all be all, but also technically Flash can use it as much as he wants to his advantage. So Sonic technically wins here since his hax deliberately counter Flashes despite the circumstances.

Existence Erasure vs. Wallys Resistances: This is a huge factor for this fight. Since Wally is a DC character, he gets an extra comic book DLC; and that DLC is being resistant to lots of powers and abilities that defy any laws of reality, physics, concepts, and rational thinking. It's crazy. But how well do they stack up against one of Super Sonic’s  deadliest abilities? Well, lets peep this out; first off, even if Sonic hasn’t shown it directly, he can in fact do it. Enerjak himself was able to atomize someone, and he is confirmed to draw from the same power source as Sonic, and in relation to the Super Genesis Wave, Eggman claimed that the wave itself had no limits and that everything after the rewrite is performed will be erased from existence. And for preference, the SGW is indeed confirmed to have collapsed the Multiverse. Is it something Sonic can do normally? The wave itself I’ll touch on later but let's hypothetically focus on just pure, direct existence erasure without the use of the SGW. The answer to this is...no, no he cannot. Like I said before; he's a DC character. He's got resistance to a lot of stuff, including existence erasure. The first and most prominent example is when he survived Dr. Manhattans’  attempt at erasing him from existence in the waking result of the Flashpoint timeline. And Dr. Manhattan himself is a pretty large scale DC character in the long run, and he himself can also erase people from existence entirely, such as when he erased Metron and Owlman from existence right on the spot, very similar to what Enerjak did. And on the contrary, Manhattan > Enerjak, considering he played part in the Flashpoint timeline and according to Superman is more powerful than even Mister Mxypltzk, and Mxy is a 5th dimensional imp, and that just so happens to be where the Chaos Force lies, 5th dimensional. He also survived Abra Kadabras so-called existence erasure, and returned from the Speed Force in quick fashion.  And another comparison is his resistances to the Anti-Monitors’ antimatter. He was able to survive vibrating in a universe that was erased by antimatter, tanking a literal void full of it, and even survives being surrounded by it in an already dead universe, being briefly consumed by it. Now how powerful is this antimatter stuff? Well, this was his main method for destroying basically everything, sending waves of it that wipe out entire cities, planets, and most importantly, universes. And one blast from it was able to fatally kill Pre-Crisis Supergirl, who was able to fight Blackstarr, a character that controlled the universe in every aspect. And if that doesn’t convince you, Wally himself has shown multiple other resistances that help. He was able to remove the Death aspect of the Speed Force from his children, run to a point in reality where the concept of Death itself cannot/does not exist, survived having his entire history and world around him being retconned, and the space warping effects of a black hole. All in all, Wallys resistances should be the better of the two.

Speed Force vs. Reality Warping: Alright, the final and biggest deciding factor in my opinion. You’ve got the source of Wallys power vs Sonics power to rewrite reality on various scales of Multiversal power. I’m gonna cut to the chase and explain why reality warping won’t make the cut here. First off, the Speed Force is far too high of a range of how far it goes and where else it exists. Even if he erased the Speed Force locally, as in where it surrounds the local DC 52 Multiverse, there are multiple implications it exists elsewhere. Heck, this feat right here was Wally in the Dark Multiverse, meaning its bigger than Sonics own Multiverse alone, and there are even implications that it actually exists in the Marvel Multiverse too thanks to Impulse’ shenanigans in Young Justice Volume 3. The range is simply too big for Sonic to just warp it out of existence entirely. And theres also the fact that the Speed Force itself could relatively be unaffected by reality warping entirely, considering that it was unaffected by the Crisis on Infinite Earths, which reduced the infinite DC Multiverse at the time into a finite one. When Barry was in the Speed Force, he wasn’t affected at all; he remained the same when all was said and done since the Speed Force is in fact outside the infinite DC Multiverse. And even if Sonic even tried to do it, Wally can anticipate it quite easily, being able to sense dimensional space-time disruption or when the space-time continuum in general is in danger, giving Wally the perfect opportunities to prevent it considering Eggman disrupted his concentration fairly easily. 


And keep in mind, this feat also revolves around rewriting the contents of the new Multiverse to be similar to the old one, had Eggman not have interrupted. Eggman says that the Genesis Wave in Worlds Collide is identical to the one that caused the crossover, only much more powerful , and Sonic acknowledges the Chaos Energy as the same being used for the Genesis Wave. Sonic later considers Chaos Control to be identical after the reboot as it was prior, telling Rock to do the thing they did last time, and using "Dreams into Reality", which is basically the kinda stuff they've used for Chaos Energy post-reboot, to describe what they did with a Chaos Force. If we're to take Ian Flynn's statement as "Sonic destroyed the Chaos Force", which is confirmed as a higher dimensional plane above the space-time of the multiverse overall, instead of "The 'Chaos Force' was retired as a story concept cause we can't use it anymore", you would not only have to argue that Sonic destroyed and reset his entire power set, with an infinitely smaller fraction of it, on accident, but that he also recreated it to be exactly the same, and he also never implies this despite having all his memories of Worlds Collide. So if you’re confused, Ian Flynn's statement that the "Chaos Force" was dropped as a concept was taken as "Sonic destroyed and recreated it", which could be argued for Sonic being able to erase something on par with the Speed Force (Again, DC's cosmology means that it's still even bigger than that and therefore Sonic shouldn't be able to affect it in the long-run). Everything in the actual comics imply the exact opposite, that the Chaos Force was maintained as its energy and functions before and after the reboot are identical, and Sonic directly acknowledges the Chaos Force as matching up with the current form of Chaos Energy, which means they didn’t change it at all. So Sonic simply warping the Speed Force out of existence is very unlikely to me, given the context we have around the functionality of the Super Genesis Wave and the Chaos Force, both of which are objectively below the Speed Force.


Final Verdict: If you managed to read all of that, congratulations. You’ve just inhaled information that you’ll probably forget once this fights out. So in the end, I think Wally should take this despite the episode feeling psychologically geared towards Sonic winning, and here are my summed up reasons as to why after all we’ve gone over.

-Objectively the faster of the two

-Starts out with attack potency advantage

-Cancels out time manipulation/time manipulation resistance with his own

-Has ways of countering Sonics intangibility with his own

-Better BFR methods

-Can bypass fate manipulation via the Speed Force

-Molecular control could tamper with Sonics organs

-Speed Force could incapacitate/absorb Sonic entirely

-Wally has resistances to existence erasure, phasing, conceptual manipulation, mind control, etc.

-Speed Force is outside of Sonics reality warping range

Tl;dr...

So in the end, I believe Wallace Rudolph West, wins the ultimate race of life and death.

“It doesn’t matter how many fall for new heroes will always rise to carry on, bringing all the resources, their skills, their talents to defeat the enemy.”

  TexasRoastingOnAnOpenFire (Robin)


When I saw this matchup announced at the end of Zuko v Todoroki (Which was a great episode! Glad my first ever blog prediction turned out to be correct!) I could not have been more PUMPED! Sonic the Hedgehog is pretty much my favorite video game character of all time, and Wally West is my freaking BOY! He’s easily my favorite Flash and the red head is definitely one of the most iconic comic book characters of ALL TIME! This gave me an excuse to dig into both of their comic book runs to come to an answer as to which of these legendarily powerful speedsters can claim the title of “Most Broken Speedster in Fiction.” So, with that out of the way, let’s chat about both of these combatants!


First up is my boy, Wally West. He’s got a lot of the same powers you’d expect from The Flash. Super speed to the point of it breaking the speed of light, the ability to vibrate through things, the ability to steal kinetic energy(?!), and many other abilities! All of this comes from the Speedforce, which is a pretty much a realm of existence which powers Wally. I’m horrendous at talking about cosmology, but do note that the Speedforce is above a 5D realm known as The Bleed in DC Cosmology, which will be relevant later. When channeling a bit of the Speed Force, Wally easily finds himself in that normal herald range when it comes to AP. He’s about universal+ due to the DC Universe being 100 Trillion Lightyears in size. When he’s channeling ALL of it, though? He scales to an infinite multiverse in AP! Wally was capable of damaging the Anti Monitor, something not even the Spectre could do not an issue before! With the Speed Force being what it is, it’s pretty easy to see why he’s so powerful when he’s channeling all of it. The Speed Force also acts as something he can BFR people into, and potentially turn them into energy assuming they can resist that! As for speed, well. 

He once outran the Speed Force.

The speed force.

The concept of speed.

The Flash is faster than Speed.

Not to mention he constantly blitzes characters who have immeasurable speed feats themselves, such as Eobard Thawne and other heralds like Superman. Now, let’s move on to Sonic!


Sonic is a little bit less difficult to place down. His abilities are pretty clear cut as well! He’s got boosting, phasing through objects, and two different forms known as Super and Ultra Sonic! Super comes with Chaos Control, which is easily the most powerful move in Sonic’s arsenal! Said Chaos Control counted the Genesis Wave, which removed the existence of the Chaos Force, which used to power Sonic’s abilities funnily enough. The Chaos Force was a fifth dimensional concept, making it and Sonic’s reality warping INSANELY powerful. He can be interrupted while doing his warping, though, and some members of the blog will probably argue that Chaos Control is not as powerful as it seems. Ultra Sonic gives him some sweet matter manipulation and transmutation! For stats, I’m being lenient and saying Sonic should be universal in base. He’s taken beatings from Super forms in base before, and he’s got some other universal feats thrown in there as well. As for Super, well...definitely multiversal plus as well. If Chaos Control can match a multiversal retcon, and it’s all coming from the same power source, I don’t see why Sonic shouldn’t be Multi+. As for speed, he has moved in a time stomp before in a robot form, although was incapable when he was his normal base self. No use debating that, though. Sonic has literally outran time before, because of course he has, lol. This means he’s also immeasurable. Boom!


Now, let’s compare. They’ve honestly shown resistances to almost all of each other’s abilities! In fact, they both seem to resist each of each other’s haxxes...mostly. Wally is probably a bit higher into immeasurable, and he tends to have the AP advantage more often than not before they reach their maximum forms...but all of that means nothing if the Speed Force gets erased by Chaos Control...but luckily for him, I don’t think it can. Speed Force scales above the Bleed, which is heavily comparable to the Chaos Force in how it’s 5D. If Chaos Control can erase that, but has never shown the ability to obliterate something HIGHER than that, then you simply cannot assume that the Speed Force will be erased by Chaos Control. I think this outcome is a bit obvious with that fact in mind. The Flash can simply BFR the Blue Blur into the Speed Force, which has overtaken people with resistances Transmutation before...so with that in mind, I think Wally West will be crowned the Fastest Thing Alive.

The Grandbull

(So Long Gay Hedgehog… again)


With the disappointment of zuko hot. (Yes thats what im calling it for now on) I was hoping the next time would be everything this matchup wasn't. And holy shit did i get my wish granted. (https://youtu.be/UpjYTwNjWc8) With the most balls to the wall, crazy as fuck and the most debatable matchup in DEATH BATTLE history. This battle can basically be summed up with my own meme


Pretty much what this fights all about. I mean both are just bullshit stat and powers wise in general. But this is fucking ridiculous. I expected wally to be bullshit because… DC. DC is always bullshit. But I didn't expect archie to be just that. Archie literally has the same stats as fucking wally does. Well… all but 1. That actually being speed. Both are immeasurable, yes. But Wally had gone beyond that. By literally out running the speed force.

Like wtf. This shit is like if sonic outran the chaos force or a car moving faster than the engine. like Jesus Christ's man. I know most people think immeasurable is just a single placing but this proves it can have layers to it. Regardless, Wally is faster than archie. Which is funny. But what really decides this fight is powers. Archie and wally both hard counter a lot of their main powers here. All except 1. BFR. Aka battle field removal. Basically zone of silence vs speed force bfr. Despite the zone of silence shutting down And stopping all KE. It takes literal days for it to do that. Meanwhile the speed force is able to not only keep people there and shut down the speed of others, but transmute being in a very short time frame into pure energy. Also while ultra does have bs reality warping, the speed force resisted similar effects with doomsday clock. With dr Manhattan’s existence erasure. Plus Wally has more experience overall than archie. Then again that's what you get when you've been in the game for 3 decades now. So overall this is a super close fight. But I say Wally’s greater Powers, experience and speed give him the victory in this fight. Guess you can say this fight was over in a flash


The Winner is Wally West The Flash


Da Lunge Fish

               

Okay, now my prediction for my most wanted Death Battle by a long shot. My first one, so I might sound like a dumbass. At first, I thought Wally claps, but I learnt more about Archie, so now I believe it’s one of the closest DBs of all time. Okay, onto my verdict. Both will start not at their strongest (IMO, base Sonic is universal+, while Wally is low multiversal). Wally is a bit stronger and MUCH faster, but blitzing before super forms is not a thing on Death Battle, and in general this would be an underwhelming and stupid outcome. If we compare Super Sonic and Speed Force Wally, they are both multiversal+ and immeasurable (Wally easily blitzes if we use only quantifiable feats tho), but Wally might be a bit higher into immeasurable, judging by how he outran Speed Force or blitzes other immeasurable character. So, they are pretty close nonetheless. I believe Wally takes it, and here’s why. First, speed steal. I know Sonic can regain speed with his rings, but when he did, he had average human speed. He may not be able to use it when completely immobilized. Flash can also simply take Sonic’s rings away, or Sonic will just run out of them. Even if none of this works, Flash can basically use Sonic as a battery, repeatedly boosting his own speed. Wally has other things that might work, like vibrating Sonic’s organs out, or use the Death Touch, a martial arts move that  uses chi and some vibration to kill people in a Kenshiro-like manner. One of Sonic’s main arguments is him simply destroying the Speed Force with Chaos Control. But I believe it won’t work, as Speed Force exists above the Bleed and is at the very 5D, if not higher, as the Bleed is already at that level. Flash has many resistances, including resistance to Matter Manipulation, one of Ultra Sonic’s main advantages. Speaking of Ultra Sonic, turning into him will be a really bad move, as he was never confirmed to be comparable to, or above Super. BFR won’t work, as both can dimensionally travel. Basically, Flash just has more options. If they decide to simply slug it out, I believe Wally would still win, as he has some actual martial arts experience, and is likely faster.

In the end, Sonic’s speed could have ARCHIEVED the victory, but Wally’s SPEED FORCED him to lose.

Phew, reading these puns made me cringe. But here, puns are supposed to make you cringe. Long story short, my vote goes to Wally West.


Twice

(How about another tune while these speedsters Accelerate to the death?)


This is one extremely loaded matchup that I definitely don’t have the chops to go all-in on, but I’d still like to offer my quick thoughts. Addressing Zuko VS Todoroki real quick, it was pretty much my favorite episode of the season. Not perfect, of course, but I wasn’t expecting such anyway. Huge props to everyone involved, especially whoever it was who was responsible for getting Dante to come on and voice Zuko. Seriously, that’s awesome. 


Anyway, as many, many people have gone incredibly in-depth on, both Wally and Sonic have an immense, headache-inducing amount of ridiculous, immeasurable feats and powers at their disposal. Frankly, if you can think of a point for one of them, there’s likely a counter-argument to be made against it. 


For my part, I think possibly the most important factor here is speed. After all, it’s why this matchup even exists. I believe Sonic may narrowly edge out in raw power, but Wally is likely faster. The Speed Stealing and Speed-Restoration are often brought up in this regard, and I think this is crucial. While Sonic may be able to restore his speed, he cannot undo the speed his opponent takes from him. Therefore, Wally’s Speed Steal should more or less be able to ‘feed’ off Sonic’s own immensely immeasurable speed, further tipping the speed advantage into the Flash’s favor. 


It would certainly be a valid argument to weigh Sonic’s power and bizarre abilities as evidence of Sonic having ways to get around the speed gap. But for my piece, I believe Wally simply goes beyond Sonic in the most vital area here. It’s ridiculous to think about, but Sonic being immeasurably fast starts to become sort of slow when compared to Wally, who is… well, also immeasurable, and somehow even moreso .It’d be like if infinity + infinity actually resulted in a new quantity altogether, and that would be the value Sonic would have to deal with. With Wally constantly getting faster and certainly not lacking in power himself, I believe Wally will ultimately take the crown here. 


Jedi Bender 

 

“I’m Vengeance” 


It’s about time.  For 2 decades this question has been asked and finally we’re getting the answer on who is the Fastest Being Alive but Will it be over in a Flash? Or is Speed The Blue Blur’s Game 


 so let’s get the personal connections these two have on me.  Wally West was the first Flash I saw on Cartoons at the time (since Barry was still dead during the 2000s) and he instantly captured my heart. His personality stood out manly the humor Wally uses in Justice League/Unlimited just made a lasting impact on the Flash in general. Then Young Justice (the cartoon) took it even further with his character  making him so lovable and deep (all in 1 season BTW) 


As far as Archie Sonic goes  I read a few of the comics as well and watched the Cartoon. I loved it  nothing more to add lol. Now onto who I’m going for in this fight this is where Things get crazy as far as Debates go.


Both are really really OP AF  arguments can be made with either one winning  however giving Sonic’s last time in DB (where they essentially gave Mario a pity win  while trying to make Mario look somehow more OP ). Yes things are different this time but regardless we can only assume their Downplay or Highball Sonic’s Archie Feats me personally their most likely meet us somewhere in the middle thus leading me to believe Wally West will be taking the W here given their using Geoff Johns Era Wally  let me preferess NO it has nothing to do with Bias 


IMO Sonic should be able to get the jump on Flash due to his amounts of Haxes plus him having Bugs Bunny Level Toon Force and 4th Wall awareness unfortunately given how Wally West is pretty much a Speed Realty God who also outran the DAMN SPEED FORCE!  

But I can hear the arguments Sonic can just regain his Speed when Wally tries to Steal his speed  on the flip side The 3rd Flash can just keep stealing and stealing  until Sonic runs out of resources  also Wally has so many ways to just end The Hedgehog's life whereas Sonic needs his arsenal and Raw Power in order to put his opponent down.


Thus This fight will be close however Wally West is gonna cross the finish line by a nose. Flash FTW.


PineappleGuy Carmine

(Ha ha, running)


Let's cut to the chase here. Wally is my favorite DC character no doubt. I was going in rooting for him harder than any other character this season. So it's ironic for me that this is without a doubt the closest a DC herald has come to losing in a while. So let's get into it.


So let's start off with what's usually the deciding factor in these fights, stats. So right off the bat, speed is extremely stupid here. Both have performed immeasurable speed feats in their stories at their peak. Sonic in his Super form has done things like move time forward from sheer speed, and once moved so fast he was unable to be calced. Wally has outpaced literal instant teleportation to reach a "trans-time velocity" and outran the Speed Force itself. I'd say Wally's sound a bit more impressive since he outran his own power reserve and what pushes time and reality forward, but I'll keep this one a tie.


On strength and durability. They're once again pretty close to each other at first look. Wally using a substantial amount of the Speed Force was able to break the Anti-Moniter's armor, which not even Specter could do. Sonic while in Super form can fight beings that can harm the multiverse, which is infinite. So theses are easily multiversal+ feats. So are we placing them as infinitely equal again? Well not exactly. Wally has an absolute trump card. Mainlining the Speed Force. The Speed Force scales above The Bleed in size and scope due to the DC Cosmology, and it exists as a 5th Dimensional entity. What does this mean exactly? Well in the DC multiverse there are these higher planes of existence spatial dimensions occupy. The higher up you go, the more infinitely powerful you are than the last. You may recall the 5th Dimensional imp, Mister Mxyzptlk, a guy that can basically play with the multiverse like a game whenever he wants. This kind of power isn't anything like Sonic has ever seen before. So at his peak, with the entirety of the Speed Force, I'm giving the edge to Wally.


Next we're on to abilities, and whew boy, this gets crazy. I'll just rapidfire through some abilities to not waste time. Wally's Speed Steal: Rings can restore Sonic's speed, though Wally will still increase regardless I guess. Molecular Manipulation: Both have the ability to survive attacks directed atomically, so it's likely neither would succumb to this. Sonic's Fate Manipulation: It's sketchy to begin with, and it definitely doesn't mean Sonic will always win, as even the planned Sonic 06 tie in comic was going to have his death. Phasing: This one I can actually give an edge too, as Wally can stop someone else's phasing, but Sonic can't. BFR: both can easily dimension hop. Speed Force Absorption: With his will and Chaos Energy, Mammoth Mogul was able to keep his physical form together under similar circumstances, it's likely Sonic can too. Overall Wally probably takes the edge with his uncontested ability to phase, turn invisible, and create light clones if he wants. But wait, I'm forgetting something…


Chaos Control. This alone needed its own section as it's often thought to be Sonic's best win condition here. So let's get into this, shall we. First off, let's start with the obvious tactic of warping Wally himself. Wally has been through enough instances of surviving reality warping to where that probably isn't going to work. Like the time his whole history was rewritten, or how the Speed Force let him survive Flashpoint. Generally he'll find a way out of these situations. On to an even more enticing point, destroying the Speed Force. Ian Flynn has stated that Sonic's botched Chaos Controls combined with the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the Chaos Force. Now both the Speed Force and Chaos exist outside space and time, so they should be comparable, right? Well, no. Like I've said before, DC's expansive cosmology puts the Speed Force on a level Sonic has never been able to face in canon. Also for those who say "dimensional tiering is unnecessary and DB won't use it". This isn't something you can ignore, it's woven into the fabric of reality, in-universe it has been referenced and demonstrated time and time again with guys like Mister Mxyzptlk and Darkseid. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the Chaos Force and Speed Force are totally equal entities. First off, Sonic's instant Chaos Control was only able to counter the original Genesis Wave which was only on a universal scale. This was apparent when he and Mega Man failed to undo it with their first attempt. To get on the level Sonic needs to take out the Super Genesis Wave, he requires concentration and time to do so. This is his downfall. The Speed Force informs Wally of any disturbances in space time (also I don't think Tails countering Mogul's direct precognition is comparable to Wally's cosmic alert). Wally would undoubtedly understand what's happening and interrupt him, just as Eggman did in canon. Which can cause Sonic's own ability to do something he didn't intend. Overall, I think Wally counters the Chaos Control in every way that matters.


With that long stretch out of the way, let's move on to the easier section of speed and experience. Wally gets experience for his much longer time in the hero business as a teenager. Skill is pretty even, Sonic hasn't ever really lost anything significant, even against martial artists and Wally comes up with so many inventive uses for his speed. Like I said, pretty easy to label for this one.


So to sum it all up, while this battle is one of the closest in a long time, I think Wally edges out in just enough categories to let him take the win. He has more power at his peak, more abilities that aren't countered, and the experience to make use of those advantages. Archie Sonic may be powerful, but he couldn't stop the Genesis of The Flash's victory. The winner is Wally West.

Showzilla

(Blasting on at the speed of light

Tearing up the highway to oblivion)


Right then, there ain’t much left to say that hasn’t already been said, Wally has this high noon shootout


Both Sonic and Wally have feats that put their speed at “immeasurable” because they move so fast you literally can’t plug them into any calculations, Sonic has moved even when time stopped moving and Wally has crossed the goddamn universe in less than an instant….no, he literally covered that distance in less than 0 seconds. Whilst Sonic is channeling the chaos force and Wally is drawing on significantly from the speed force, both can cause damage on multiversal+ scales. 


So, what’s the big kicker that gives Wally the advantage? Easy, in this match up, speed kills and Wally has the ability to control speed. For a moment, lets ignore the fact that Wally has blitzed beings also capable of moving at immeasurable speeds up to and including his own MOTHERFUCKING SELF, let’s ignore that scaling and just set him in the category of “immeasurable” and make no attempt to differentiate him and sonic, like two heavyweights in the ring. The first obvious issue is that Sonic may be MFTL in base, he’s never really hit immeasurable without a boost as either Sonic man or Super sonic; so, if we were being anti-climactic, Wally could just speed blitz him into road kill before he transforms...but that’s boring. No, the real thing sonic lacks at this point is a counter for speed steal, the faster he moves, the faster Wally moves. Sure, Sonic COULD pull a ring and jump back up to normal speed, but then he’s just gonna end up boosting Wally EVEN MORE. There’s also the issue of every attosecond sonic wastes going for a ring, is an attosecond he’s getting wailed on. 


In fact, that brings up a big weakness Sonic has in that most of his best offensive options to take Wally out involve him focusing on something besides Wally. This isn’t normally an issue given sonic’s speed, but Wally is as fast as sonic (and this is giving sonic the benefit of the doubt) and Wally can much more easily speed steal while Sonic’s attention is focused elsewhere. This doesn’t even account for Sonic’s best options being filled with way too many IF’s to be something to bank on like saying “sonic could remove the speed force! If he can manipulate something far larger than anything he’s done before”. If you then acknowledge Wally blitzing other immeasurables, the issue multiplies.


At the end of it all, Sonic has MORE than enough potential fire power to put Wallace down, but he’s just…..


ramen

(dra ihejanca cehkc du sa)


 


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rana'c so janteld eh ym prat


cuhel teac


dra aht


tet oui ghuf dryd yh ydducaluht ec du y caluht fryd y caluht ec du ypuid 31.71 pemmeuh oaync


The real cal howard

(TM!Riolu is just gonna be a constant avi for me)


I’m not gonna go H.A.M. on this analysis as everyone else did so before me. But I’ll do my best. Shoutout to my bois who I know will be reading this so they can get some inside info.


So it’s no secret that these two are fast as heck. Like, two of the fastest, if not the fastest, characters in fiction (without being some omnipresent bs or dimensional shenanigans). It was only a matter of time before this matchup happened. And speaking of which, time is very obsolete here. Because this match will happen in a flash. Pun completely intended and I’m sure this isn’t the first time this exact pun was used in this blog. These two rupture infinite universes with their sheer speed. It’s insane. And both are extremely hard to kill. Flash has regen on his side while Sonic has invulnerability and...sigh...fate. Both resist almost everything they have in each other’s arsenals. While base to base, Wally has the advantage, we all know this match will come down to Super/Ultra Sonic (I’m just gonna say Super to save time unless I’m specifically referring to Ultra) and Full Speed Force Wally. Sonic going Super is more in character than Wally absorbing the entire Speed Force and likely holds the raw power advantage. Meanwhile, Wally is faster and more experienced. It’s the closest matchup of the season and probably the entire series (you don’t count, Meta vs Carolina). Neither can really….kill the other. At least not conventionally. But the two do have distinct advantages. Sonic’s biggest one, and his primary win condition, is Chaos Control. That plot device could wipe the Chaos Force, and it doing the same to the Speed Force will grant him the win. Whether or not he can I’ll address soon. And Wally has his Speed Steal. While Sonic can regain his speed with Rings, he still loses it and gets added to Wally’s, and it essentially turns Sonic into Wally’s personal battery. Not to mention it’s not nearly as severe as what Wally did to Inertia. But I’ll cut to the chase and state that I think the Scarlet Speedster beats the Blue Blur. One, comparing quantifiable speed feats, Wally trumps Sonic by miles. While I’m perfectly fine with immeasurable for both, even then, Wally has feats of blitzing immeasurables. Two, Sonic’s only real wincon is the reality warp via Chaos Control. Wally can sense when reality is being screwed with so he can interrupt it, and the Chaos Control has been interrupted before by things lesser than Wally, much to Sonic’s chagrin. He can’t kill him with anything else as Wally either regens or resists or gets out of BFR. Wally can hide from the Chaos Control in the Speed Force if need be. And truthfully, Wally even resists the reality warping. It’s a matter if Sonic can delete the Speed Force. And there’s no telling if Sonic would ever find out the Speed Force exists. And three, Wally does have multiple wincons. While Archie’s version of Super Sonic lasts a long time, it doesn’t last an eternity. Eventually, whether it takes days or even weeks, it will run out. If Sonic can’t kill Flash before that point, it’s easy pickings. And while both can time travel, Wally is the only one who is acausal. Flash can kill him in the past and end things there, and given he holds the speed advantage… Finally, Wally can potentially dump him in the Speed Force. Here’s the thing. While both are 5-D constructs, the Speed Force and the Chaos Force, the Chaos Force only has statements putting it on the level of the Bleed, the baseline 5-D construct in DC, and the Speed Force is bigger than the Bleed. So if Sonic is dumped into the Speed Force, he can’t bust it to get out, and teleporting out ain’t exactly likely. So while I think Sonic puts up an amazing fight, and I’ve gained a freaking ton of respect for Archie Sonic, Wally wins with extreme diff. No seriously. Extreme. He’s gonna have to pull out all the stops. But ultimately beating Flash is really hard. It’s like slamming your head against a brick wall...y.





SoMaShadow




First of all, I’d just like to express how awesome it is to get to work on something like this. Flash vs Sonic is a fight that I’ve always wanted to see done and the fact that I get to be part of a discussion like this is just mind-blowing to me. Thank you so much to all of the G1 Bloggers for giving me the opportunity to do this!


Now, as much as I love Sonic (and trust me, I really do. Shadow is in my name, after all), I’m going to have to go with Wally on this one. And although my verdict isn’t going to be as in-depth as Bang’s is (the dude went HAM on it), I’m still going to do my best.


Let’s try and cover the easier parts of this debate first before we get into speed, because good God is there a load of stuff to cover for both in the speed section alone. Let’s start with Strength: It’s actually pretty damn close for both combatants in this category when the fight starts out. Flash was able to match Barry’s speed in the Flash War, which was so fast that their run affected multiple planes of reality like Fourth World, the Microverse and the Green (which is connected to all separate timelines of creation), and Cyborg even noted that they were wreaking havoc with the fabric of the entire Multiverse. Not to mention that Wally has physically overwhelmed Rebirth Superman, and he scales to Barry Allen who has casually beaten foes like Daxamites, beings who are stated to be similar in strength to the Man of Steel. He was also able to knock out Mogul (another foe of similar strength to Superman), and with the Infinite Mass Punch, was able to knock out a White Martian, who are able to take attacks from Orion. Plus, he tore apart the armour of the Anti-Monitor, who caused the Crisis on Infinite Earths.


Sonic is more than capable of busting apart planets on his own in his base form, and has feats in the Solar System range, but his more powerful feats come from his Super Form, so that’ll be the focus of this segment. Like how his fights with Hyper Knuckles and Enerjak give him levels of power around the Universal range. But his power isn’t limited to this, and goes beyond this level, though it’s more due to something which I will explain later, and the same goes for Wally.


Durability: Both characters scale their attack power to their durability, but it’s important to note that even though Flash can be caught and harmed by pretty fodder enemies, he’s always holding himself back. Granted, Sonic does have more experience with fistifghting and actual martial arts, but Flash has taken his fair share of hard hits, I mean, the dude effectively survived the imploding force of the Big Bang. But like I said earlier, I’ll get more into their better feats in a later section for some very specific reasons.


Speed: These two are probably the fastest characters in all of fiction and that’s no surprise to anyone here. And this is the part where the numbers get crazy. So, let’s just preface this by saying that Wally should scale to all other Flashes and most other Justice League members and that Sonic should scale to… well everyone, but he doesn’t need to because he’s the fastest being in all of Archie. So, Wally scales to Barry being able to think in less than one Attosecond, moving at speeds of Trans-Time Velocity, Superman reacting at Femtoseconds and Martian Manhunter casting Perpetua out of his mind in a Zeptosecond, which, for record, is one sextillionth of a second. Compare these feats to Sonic throwing water before Physics could take effect, which took .0000000000001 milliseconds, running across the Cosmic Interstate and visiting all planets in the universe and being home in time for dinner. First of all, Flash has better reaction times based on these feats, and Sonic visiting all planets in the Universe is really hard to quantify due to not knowing the exact scope of the Universe which he was reaching and how long it would take him. And while Sonic can move in stopped time in base form, Flashes are able to do that as well, plus, they’ve both boxed their own shadow before (an actual shadow, not of the Hedgehog variety), so Wally’s got him matched there. Even giving Sonic the benefit of the doubt with this ‘before dinner’ feat, Wally is still faster. He’s moved so fast that he’s invisible to Superman (who can cross the universe in seconds), and oh yeah, he outran instant teleportation and the FUCKING SPEED FORCE ITSELF! WHAT THE FUCK!?


Outracing instantaneous teleportation was a feat which he has only performed whilst buffed by the entire planet, but the fact that he outran a span of time wherein no time elapsed period is just insane. And that time when he ran “Faster than light and thought. Faster than the Speed Force”. HOW DO YOU MOVE FASTER THAN THE SPEED FORCE!?  I have absolutely no idea how this works, but since the Speed Force is literally movement itself, it should be okay to at least put him at speeds which we can’t measure. To put it simply, immeasurable or infinite speed for Wally. And since Archie Sonic hasn’t fought Solaris, his game-version’s feat of moving in a timeless void (which is said to be infinite speed), can’t be included. And although Sonic has outrun time itself before, so has Wally, and let me say it again. HE OUTRAN THE SPEED FORCE. Even with all of Sonic’s speed,, Wally has him matched.


Experience and Intelligence. So, both of these sections go to Wally, but it isn’t by a long shot. He’s had more experience fighting villains and gods than the 15 year-old Sonic has, and Wally was already pretty smart before he got his powers, which only ends up helping him in this regard. And though Sonic is good at analyzing weaknesses, his intelligence is more apparent in fights than outside of it, while Wally has shown that he’s good at both.


Now, let’s talk about Speed Force vs Chaos Force and their respective haxes. Now, the Speed Force encompases all movement for all of time, and looking at DC’s cosmology chart, we can see that the Speed Force is above the Bleed, which encompases DC’s infinite multiverses and operates on a fifth-dimensional scale. The Chaos Force also operates on a fifth-dimensional scale, but since the Speed Force is above the Bleed, it should be slightly higher than the Chaos Force, in dimensional tiering. Now, what exactly can these two do with their respective forces backing them up? Short answer: everything. Long answer: The Speed Force allows Wally access to some of his famous techniques such as, but not limited to: sucking people into the Speed Force, Stealing their Speed and taking it for himself, leaving them immobile forever if he wants to, running faster than time, shifting between dimensions, being able to move in stopped time, phasing through objects, which includes phasing through other phasers (like Martian Manhunter), turning intangible, healing from a cloud of vapour, channeling all of the Speed Force into himself (which gives him infinite energy), controlling all of his molecules, and, much more. The Chaos Force allows Sonic access to some of his famous techniques such as, but not limited to: Reality warping (via Chaos Control), time stopping/rewinding, phasing, intangibility, Existence Erasure, and with the One Billionth Power Ring, he can regain speed after it has been stolen, send people into different dimensions, allow for dimensional travel, increasing age, giving Sonic extra wisdom/knowledge and more.


So, with all of those covered, let’s talk about their power and hax that that gives them, and why Wally’s is better. So, Sonic’s Chaos Control is a reality warping ability which was able to reset the Super Genesis Wave, which was going to reset the Archie Multiverse and all of it’s pocket dimensions, and since his Chaos Control was able to counteract the Genesis Wave, he should also have multiversal levels of power with Chaos Control. But the issue is that the Speed Force also is a multiversal force, and that powers all of the Flashes, and they’ve resisted stuff like reality warping, existence erasure and mind control before, so Flash should be fine from reality warping. Sonic can phase through objects, but he’s said that it’s very risky for him to do so, and even then, Flash does it so casually, and to a much higher degree that he’d be more well equipped to use it as an offensive option. 


BFR is an option for both of them, but Flash is more well equipped to handle anything Sonic can throw at him. Shifting between dimensions is kinda his thing. Sonic can send Wally to the Zone of Silence, where vibrations cease to be, but this does not take effect for a while, and would give Wally plenty of time to escape, especially since Speed force is a component of creation. Barry could access the Speed force before it came into existence, so even if Sonic could get Wally away from the Speed Force, like in the Zone of Silence, he should still be able to access its power. And dragging Sonic into the Speed Force would be a good option, since it has much more range of the area it encompases, and he can use it to fuel himself, and get stronger while robbing Sonic of his speed, and making the Blue Blur constantly weaker.


But we need to talk about the most important part of this fight. Speed Steal vs the One Billionth Power Ring. Wally’s Speed Steal is one of his most important abilities in this fight, and just in general. While Wally would be able to steal Sonic’s speed and add it to his own, Sonic is able to regain it with his rings. Issue here is that it doesn’t stop Flash from doing it in the first place, effectively turning Sonic into a living battery for Wally, which he can just use to get faster and faster, and surpass Sonic’s speed with ease, using the Blue Blur himself to do it. And since the Speed Force is a dimension above that which the Chaos Force is, he should be safe from the reality warping of the Speed Force, or Sonic trying to erase it. And his Super and Ultra forms don’t help him out as much as you’d think. A lot of these feats were mentioned while he was in Super form, and Wally should be able to match its power. And Ultra Sonic does give him atomic manipulation, but it doesn’t give him anything new that Flash doesn’t resist, or wouldn’t be able to heal from. Wally scales to Barry, who has healed from a cloud of water vapour, so Sonic would need to get him all in one big attack to finish him off, and since Wally resists any move like that Sonic would be able to do, Wally would just be able to keep the fight going until Sonic gets worn out or Wally gets a fatal injury on him. Wally just has better chances all around.


All in all, due to his superior strength, speed, intelligence, experience, versatility, hax, and resistances, I believe that Wally West will be the winner in this fight. Don’t get me wrong, this battle will need everything Wally can give and Sonic is sure to give him the fight of his life, but at the end of the day, Wally has what it takes to win. Guess this battle was over in a Flash.


Thank you guys so much for having me on here, it’s truly been a pleasure.




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37 comments:

  1. MalcolmBelmont5 September 2020 at 15:21

    Part 2 is out and man was this a big project, this fight was easily one of the most intresting we have ever debated and no matter how the DB turns out. This blog was fun to work on

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  2. Ethan Winick5 September 2020 at 16:14

    I agree that this was fun to work on despite being very long and hard to finish. I am fine with the winner overall, and I hope everyone enjoys this special fight.

    ReplyDelete
  3. TorresTobias275 September 2020 at 16:26

    a question, sonic using the chaos force could not resist attacks of master mogul who had the power to destroy universes

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  4. Unknown5 September 2020 at 19:40

    another possible DC? Are you insane?!

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    Replies
    1. Unknown5 September 2020 at 19:40

      *DC win

      Delete
    2. TheNerd-Bot5 September 2020 at 20:59

      Not really, no.

      Delete
    3. Unknown7 September 2020 at 04:09

      Dc win because of bs ending and misinformation sadly

      Delete
    4. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:22

      Yep. I saw what happened "I wish you gone...FOREVERRRRRR!"
      "No u"
      "GAAAAAAAAH!" *dies*

      Delete
    5. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:32

      Misinformation? People on Comicvine claim that "Archie Sonic can crush multiverses in his hands!" (It was Mammoth Mogul) or "He beat Mammoth Mogul!" (It was Tails who did it. Sonic got K.O'd with one blast. Come to think of it, the same way Horus vs the Emperor went down)

      Delete
  5. Careless Fool5 September 2020 at 19:55

    You know a match-up is bonkers when it can't be contained in one blog post. They really should have saved this for the Season Finale. That being said, I'm happy most of the judges seem to favor Wally on this one. Here's hoping the Death Battle hosts agree.

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  6. Peptocoptr275 September 2020 at 21:58

    I still feel like Wally shouldn't be able to steal Sonic's speed. The canon Marvel/DC cross-over kind of proves it.

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    1. Peptocoptr276 September 2020 at 15:51

      If you believe Wally can steal Sonic'should speed, you essentially believe he can steal Sonic's speed force. For that to work, the fight would need to take place in the DC multiverse, which is only fair, of course, but if you believe that, then you also have to believe that Sonic can tap into the speed force. After all, all kinetic energy in DC originates from the speed force, and non-speedster characters like Green Lantern with less impressive speed feats than Sonic's peek have almost managed to tap into it. If Sonic can tap into the only thing that allows Flash to be superhuman and continue utilizing his chaos powers and natural abillities, then an argument could be made for Flash being screwed. So that's your two options. Either you allow Flash to steal Sonic's speed force, and therefore his kinetic energy allong with the speed that goes with it and you allow Sonic to utilise that speed force all around him, or you do neither. Wally can'take just have his cake and eat it too, especially when one of the verdicts states that the speed force exists in Marvel and yet Flash still couldn't steal Quicksilver's speed because his speed is of mutant origin. There are just so many details that get in the way of Flash's speed steal in the first place that it's only fair to give Wally that ultimatum

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    2. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:27

      Chaos Force...sounds a LOT like...SPEED FORCE, doesn't it? Totally NOT a ripoff!

      Delete
    3. Blaze the hedgehog13 September 2021 at 19:51

      It’s not hater

      Delete
    4. everywaysonicwins12 June 2023 at 22:42

      sonic gets his speed from himself, as in he generates kinetic energy, so the more he runs the faster he gets, and the faster he runs the more his "limit" increases

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    5. everywaysonicwins12 June 2023 at 22:43

      Not to mention that Wally can control the kinetic energy of anything he touches, but Sonic is able to put a block on that due to freely changing the molecules of anything, including energy conversion. Wally's speed steal would have no effect.

      Delete
  7. TheNerd-Bot6 September 2020 at 07:49

    Thanks for having me on here again, guys! It was awesome to talk about one of my fictional characters of all time. Sorry I couldn't be as helpful as the others, but college and all that.

    ReplyDelete
  8. trex406 September 2020 at 13:21

    Wow ... a 2-parter, huh? Damn, you guys went through a lot of info. Good job.
    Anyways, to me personally it sounds like Wally has this one in the bag. But then again, I don't know much about Archie Sonic. If his upper-limit really is only Multiversal+ then he really shouldn't be too much of a problem, considering the outerversal scaling that could be applied to the Speedforce,what with it transcending the Bleed, which contains every dimension in the infinite-dimensional dc multiverse.

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    1. trex406 September 2020 at 13:23

      But like I said, I don't know anything about Archie Sonic. So I won't argue with anyone if they think he actually has a shot at winning.

      Delete
    2. Peptocoptr276 September 2020 at 15:53

      I've seen claims that Sonic's 11D at his best. People usually say it's bullshit, but they never say why. Lmao

      Delete
    3. trex406 September 2020 at 16:48

      Well, I don't blame them for saying it's BS. After all, there's tons of misinformation on the internet these days, which is why it's important to be able to provide evidence in order to support your claims. If the people claiming 11-D Sonic aren't able to provide scans or translations about how Archie Sonic is Hyperversal, then It's very difficult for anyone to take them seriously.

      Delete
    4. Peptocoptr277 September 2020 at 13:25

      They provide scans and translations. That's what I said. It's the people who say it's bullshit who don't.

      Delete
    5. EndlessMayhem16 September 2020 at 06:59

      That "evidence" is relying on assuming String Theory exists in the verse, simply because one term is used in Archie, even though it's clearly something different given the context.

      Delete
  9. Peptocoptr278 September 2020 at 12:29

    Birb said that Sonic's rings have countered anti-inertia fields before, but I haven't seen it anywhere else. Does anyone have a scan or at least some context?

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  10. BUB2317 January 2021 at 16:56

    Wally won. Brace yourselves, for here comes the butthurt Archie fans...

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    Replies
    1. Shadow21 January 2021 at 03:18

      I mean we can debate sonic vs flash if you want to

      Delete
    2. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:29

      I prefer not to. DB's settled it. And don't give me the crap about them being "BiAsEd" 'cause they're not. (Ben freaking CRIED over Archie Sonic)

      Delete
    3. Blaze the hedgehog13 September 2021 at 19:50

      You sound like you want to run away from this argument

      Delete
  11. Shadow21 January 2021 at 03:16

    Chaos force is stated to be a concept therefore it isnt bound by dimensions unlike the speed force

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  12. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:16

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Then how come it doesn't exist in Scourge's universe? The Speed Force actually isn't bound by dimensions. It exists beyond the Bleed, which holds all dimensions inside of it. Get over it, fanboy. Sonic lost. Move. On.

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  13. BUB2321 January 2021 at 08:23

    And the Speed Force IS a concept. Get it through your thicc skull, man.

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    Replies
    1. Blaze the hedgehog10 July 2021 at 23:40

      Chaos force IS a concept YOU get it through YOUR thick skull man

      Delete
  14. everywaysonicwins12 June 2023 at 22:40

    Wally can control the kinetic energy of anything he touches, but Sonic is able to put a block on that due to freely changing the molecules of anything, including energy conversion. Wally's speed steal would have no effect. composed with the fact that sonic can just wish to be better than Wally in every way due to the gods, wally would 100% lose

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