Friday, 16 June 2023

Death Battle Predictions: Ant-Man VS Atom

 

"The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


Ant-Man, Marvel’s size-shifting Scientist Supreme and founder of the Avengers.


The Atom, DC’s mighty Microverse explorer and member of the Justice League. 


As the old saying goes, “Heroes come in all shapes and sizes”. But since this is comics we’re talking about, this saying is not only literal, but has also reached absurd heights. Such is the case with these two genius scientists who were capable of developing technology so ridiculous, they can be whatever size they please while fighting alongside some of the greatest heroes their worlds have ever known. But today, both scientists will have to rely on all their greatest inventions and achievements to walk away as the greatest size-altering hero. Will Hank prove triumph-Ant against his opponent, or will Ray be able to grasp victory in the Palm of his hand? Gather around for today’s experiment and we’ll see which subatomic superhero will rise to the challenge, and which one will fall short. It’s time for a DEATH BATTLE!

Before We Start…

There isn't really anything to note here. Both will get the comics as their main respective media to pull from and their respective franchises' encyclopedias for additional context. Additional media that isn’t congruent with the comics like the MCU for Hank and the Legends of Tomorrow show for Ray will not be included. With that out of the way, let the lesson begin.

Background

Ant-Man

“You see, I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore. I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellowjacket! I'm Henry Pym!” 


In the grand calculus of the multiverse and beyond, the boundaries in place are what define you as separate from others. This idea has been set in stone since long ago, and in this day and age, it has become common knowledge. But what if there was a way to bypass that? What if there was a way to remove the limits that a person has and make imagination the only boundary there is? There have been many who have tried that, but none came as close as Dr. Henry Jonathan Pym.


Born as the son of Brad and Doris Pym, Henry or Hank otherwise was a genius prodigy at a young age, capable of making inventions beyond his wildest imagination thanks to the encouragement of his grandmother. Eventually, Hank would graduate with a doctorate in biochemistry and even get married… after which his wife was killed on their honeymoon in Hungaria. Traumatized by this experience, Hank worked toward ending conflicts around the world through a discovery that would change his life forever.


After returning to both the U.S. and his studies, Hank would discover a rare type of subatomic particle that he dubbed the Pym Particles. Upon further study of Pym Particles, he discovered that they allowed him to alter his size however he could imagine. Such as in one instance where he accidentally shrunk down to the size of an ant and discovered an anthill in his lab. This misadventure led him to not only continue his study on Pym Particles, but also start a new study about ants in order to create a way to communicate with them. Through enough research and experimentation, Hank would create his own superhero persona alongside his partner/new love interest, Janet Van Dyne, and with the power of the Pym Particles, he became the size-altering hero known as Ant-Man. Hank’s heroic reputation would also aid him once he and Janet formed the Avengers alongside Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk: a group of superheroes dedicated to fighting the battles that humanity never could. 


Unfortunately, despite Hank’s newfound family with the Avengers, the effects of being a superhero took a toll on his mind. After one of his greatest achievements, a robot A.I. named Ultron, turned into one of the Avengers’s greatest threats, Hank’s mental state took a turn for the worst. Specifically, he took up a completely new and violent hero persona in the form of Yellowjacket and tragically destroyed his marriage with Janet, causing Hank to be expelled from the Avengers. But no matter what, even when Hank’s head wasn’t always in the right place, that never stopped him from coming back and doing the right thing, whether it was as Ant-Man, Yellowjacket, Goliath, or just Hank Pym. Even after Hank’s untimely death at the hands of Ultron, his ideals continued to inspire many of those around him, leading others to use his discoveries for good and take up the mantle of Ant-Man in his stead. If anything can be taken away from Hank’s legacy, it’s that even those with small beginnings can go on and accomplish great things.


Atom

“Relax, Figuring things out is what I do for a living.” 


To many, what lies beyond the Earth can be just as dangerous as it is exciting to discover. However, would you believe that there are just as many unknown things in worlds smaller than we could possibly imagine, as there are in the grand cosmos we aspire to reach? Only a select few have been able to prove this idea actually true, and among all of those is the brilliant scientist, Dr. Raymond Palmer.


Growing up in Ivy Town, Connecticut, attempting to date the future love of his life, Jean Loring, and graduating from Ivy University with a degree in Physics, Ray’s life couldn’t have possibly been better. Until one day, when Ray discovered the fragment of a White Dwarf Star and formed his own hypothesis: if he could grind a piece of the star fragment into a lens and expose it to ultraviolet light, he would be able to shrink anything hit by the light. However, while the process was successful, it also caused the test objects to explode upon reaching a certain height. Discouraged by his results, Ray was prepared to scrap future endeavors with the White Dwarf Star fragment, until he and his friends got trapped during a cave-in. Desperate to save his friends, Ray used the White Dwarf Star on himself to escape the cave and somehow, escaped while being able to grow back to his original size. With his new discovery in mind, Ray began to wield his powers for good. He became the superhero, The Atom.


Of course, the life of a hero is never easy, but it’s never alien either, as the Atom ended up joining the Justice League after a bit of solo work, and made friends among them, especially becoming partners with Hawkman. Whom he would go on a fair few adventures with, saving the world - or at least fair amounts of it - time after time again as a hero of Earth. From his adventures as a small hero defending the tiny city of Morlaidh, to helping save Batman from a microscopic city lodged in his blood flow, the Atom always came to aid in problems only he could solve.


But one place that no other hero had managed to figure out, much less defend, is the Microverse, a universe that is infinitely small compared to our own with its own life and ecosystem, and most importantly, people who need help. Naturally, the moment he realized there were people that needed help down there, Atom managed to shrink down there, and spent years within the Microverse, helping the people and trying to figure out what could be done to stop the Ignition Point, which was threatening to destroy the Microverse.


Of course, he didn’t leave the surface world unprotected, as he left a protégé as the new Atom for the people up above, Ryan Choi, because the world still needed the Atom to protect it. Though after enough time, Ryan came looking for Ray alongside the current Justice League, and even ended up helping him save the Microverse from the Ignition Point, which is what gave Ray the confidence to label Ryan the second Atom, for real this time.


Though Ray didn’t come back to the surface, the Microverse is a universe of its own, and with someone he trusts to carry on his legacy on the surface, Ray knew he could stay in the Microverse to protect it, and the people who live within the tiny universe. Because after all, someone has to look out for the little guy, and Ray is just the man for the job.


Experience, Skill and Intelligence

Ant-Man

Hank Pym has seen more than his fair share of combat. As one of the founding members of the Avengers, which have been active for decades, he’s fought a wide variety of opponents, from skilled hand-to-hand combatants such as Hawkeye to cybernetically-enhanced foes like Ultron, who are as smart as himself. He has even outwitted them, even those whose complex powers make it hard for a normal person to adapt to, such as Absorbing Man, and even fellow Pym Particle users such as an alternate version of himself. As a result, Hank has experience with foes who are capable of shrinking like him. He’s also no slouch in terms of raw skill, already having wrestling experience in high school, alongside learning Judo and Karate in the past. More notably, he was extensively trained by the likes of Captain America himself in hand-to-hand combat, who is one of the most skilled martial artists on the planet. He is also skilled in piloting, scuba-diving, and is stated to be a natural leader, shown through his leadership of teams such as his own Mighty Avengers, and the time he spent head-mastering Avengers Academy.


Of course, being Hank Pym, his most noteworthy aspect is his intellect, and considering he was dubbed the world's foremost biophysicist by Ultron and Scientist Supreme by Eternity, as well as considering himself the 7th smartest person on this planet, Hank has many feats to back up that brilliant mind of his. At just five, he could build a typewriter that could type in 14 different colors and at seven built a carburetor, a level of talent which would eventually led to the invention of his iconic Pym particles among various other miraculous inventions (see in the ‘Equipment’ section), which he can do even on the fly. He’s been called one of the most brilliant men that Captain America knows, a "real Doc Brown" by a future version of Tony Stark, "a wizard at logic systems" by Reed Richards and noted to have considerable expertise in numerous scientific fields such as subatomic physics, robotics, cybernetics, artificial intelligence, programming, emergency medicine, optics and entomology. He has applied these skills in more practical ways such as hacking through computers & AI as advanced as Ultron, and performing complex calculations in seconds. He has outsmarted the likes of Reed Richard and Ultron before, who are considered some of the greatest minds on the planet. He has figured out physics-defying rooms and ways around them, and created complex machinery and structures in short timeframes, such as a containment unit that could contain Loki, and the Infinite Avengers Mansion within Underspace, which has millions of floors, dimensional doors, and posits eleven dimensions of spacetime.


Atom

Having at minimum spent years as the Atom, and weeks in the hostile environment known as the Microverse, it’s fairly clear that Ray has a lot of experience in the field. Some notable examples include fighting someone with similar shrinking abilities like Aron Aut, who had one of Ray's bio-belts, and the Bug Eyed Bandit, who used an army of bugs for combat. Of course, he also has plenty of experience fighting alongside teams such as the Justice League and S.H.A.D.E., which has allowed him a fair amount of experience against a variety of foes, due to how many opponents the Justice League has faced in the past. He knows Judo, is experienced with fencing, surgery and even knows how to pilot planes. Beyond this, Ray’s also a surprisingly good leader, able to lead the Katarthans for quite some time, and other characters have claimed that he's a good diplomat.  


Of course, being part of the theme of the fight itself, it’s obvious the Atom’s no slouch in the intelligence department either. Aside from his various invention listed below, he was also considered only two degrees of separation from the likes of Lex Luthor, and considered one of the brilliant minds on Earth by Superman, alongside being stated to be ‘the next Neil DeGrasse Tyson'' by every scientific journal in the country and having a mind like the most powerful hard drive on earth by Professor Hyatt. He was even a science liaison for the United Nation once. He’s capable of rapid-fire calculations, planning out complex machinery, identifying what machinery does upon seeing it, creating complex plans on the fly, correctly guessing what an infection from an alternate multiverse is doing, and even learning an entire alien language by simply listening to their conversations over the course of a few days. He’s also fairly adaptable, capable of using his environment to his advantage in order to get the upper hand, such as using the updraft from wind to get mobility, and using his size shifting to ride items he just threw to cover ground faster.


Equipment

Ant-Man

Helmet

This helmet's main purpose (apart from making Hank look like a walking silver antenna in red and black spandex) is to communicate and send commands to all manner of insect life of all shapes and sizes, from ants obviously to crickets to Swarm (a being made out of sentinel killer bees) with a range that can send psionic/electrical signals that span entire cities to the entire planet at its known peak. However, through adjusting the signal transmitter in the helmet, Hank is able to affect organisms beyond pancrustacea hexapod invertebrates, allowing him to telepathically talk to others and scramble someone’s language center and mess with brain waves. The helmet itself also has its own air supply, air tanks and a breathing mask, detects any nearby threats with its cybernetic sensors, and can have information uploaded to it remotely.


Ant-Man Costume

The original Ant-Man suit, and the most iconic by extent, it’s made of a steel mesh consisting of unstable molecules, which allows Ant-Man to stretch and contract without his suit getting in the way. It also allows him to fire blasts out of his hands that would change the size of his targets as well. The suit’s bioware can sense energies and radiation, and in the base of his boots he has electronically-controlled springs. 


Goliath Costume

After being able to grow to giant sizes for a sustainable amount of time, Hank decided to adopt a new costume and persona…Gia–wait no…Goliath! With this new identity, he claims to have better insect control with his Cyberno-Helmet, as well as having a Directi-Finder in his belt, which can track the other Avengers from the emergency signals they send out.


Yellowjacket Costume

One of the many suits that Hank Pym has taken on the mantle of in the past, the Yellowjacket suit comes with its own unique capabilities: being able to fly, detect telepathic signals, and is insulated to protect from heat such as Equinox's thermic powers. Out of his fingertips he’s able to shoot:


Wasp Costume

Following the death of the Wasp, Hank took Janet’s mantle in an attempt to have his own legacy. With just the suit’s goggles, Hank is able to enhance his peripheral vision, record videos of whatever he sees, identify people through retinal scanning, detect and read magic and energy signatures, and can analyze these signatures to determine their user.  


The suit itself allows Hank two-way radio communication with its cowl, to amplify his own voice like a megaphone using another device also located in his cowl, to holographically project images with his gloves, to use Bio-Stings that can jam Ultron’s transmission frequencies, and most notably his pockets are actually subatomic dimensions that can carry his numerous gadgets.


Toolbot

Whenever Hank is in need of solving even the smallest of problems, he's able to bring out 'Toolbot', basically a Swiss Army knife on steroids. Using a start-chip, Hank is able to automatically bring out one of his top 900 tools stored in the same handle to accomplish what he needs. Tools he's shown to possess include:


Microchip Tools

Ant-Man also has a variety of tools he can control the size of to equip in the midst of combat. Some of the various tools he’s equipped include:


Cellular Disruptor Gun

While he was Yellowjacket, Hank developed a ‘Cellular Disruptor Gun’ for whenever he needs a harmless takedown, with it being able to stop all functions of the living tissue of the target for as long as Hank needs. However, it is possible for a foe to discharge the effects of the gun by forming a return path to the ground, as seen when Hawkeye uses a wire and arrow to counter the gun’s effects.


The Stinger

During his time as The Wasp, Hank carries a small pistol he dubs ‘The Stinger’. It is able to focus his own bio-energy into a powerful stun-beam to aid him in combat.


Image Inducers

Following his quest to retrieve his Dimensional Wave Inducer from Mr. Fantastic, Hank manufactured a whole lot of Image Inducers, which are able to disguise the user as someone else of their choice via a holographic disguise when used. Hank can utilize this alongside his shrinking to disguise as an ant. He also was able to quickly mass-produce over 400 Image Inducers in a few hours to trigger Reed’s (albeit sensitive) security system by disguising his ants as Skrulls and later mess with his technology. They are also near-foolproof, as it was even able to deceive the likes of Ultron, twice! The first instance is especially notable, given Ultron directly states that his sensors couldn’t detect the ant.


Dimensionizer

Stolen from the Living Eraser, this gadget allows Hank to “erase people” to other locations, and teleport to whatever coordinates he programs within it. It can also only “erase” parts of a target, meaning it can be used to easily dismember foes.


Rover

One of the more prominent vehicles Hank Pym has built is Rover, a sentient buggy that can fly up to 250 mph, shoot fire, acid and flames, has claws strong enough to lift cars and restrain Iron Man, and is durable enough to withstand blows from Iron Man.


Transportable Lab

Hank often keeps a lab on hand no matter where he goes, keeping it in a shrunken form and regrowing it to create any inventions or formulas on the fly. This lab also already has on-hand tech with its recording, copying, and brain engram transferring capabilities.  


Ants

Probably one of the most iconic abilities outside of his growth and shrinking thanks to the Pym Particles, Ant-Man, as the name suggests, is capable of controlling and communicating with insects such as ants. He’s been able to send signals to all ants on Earth, communicate with them telepathically, summon flying ants, and even control all sorts of insects rather than simply just ants, such as bees that are strong enough to pierce Namor’s skin. His bond with ants is so great that sometimes they can help him despite Hank not having his helmet to communicate, such as leading a path to find his first wife. 


Sometimes, these ants are also equipped with their own tech that allows them to shrink and grow through the use of Pym Particles, and can be equipped with tech that changes the weather, and Image Inducers to fool foes with holograms.


Misc. Inventions and Tools

As the Earth’s patented Scientist Supreme, Hank’s genius has led to him building a lot of gadgets and machines throughout his career, some of which specially pre-treated with Pym Particles so that he can shrink or enlarge them at a moment's notice. Notable gizmos include:


Atom

Bio-Belt

Powered by a fragment from a white dwarf star, this normally invisible belt is the main source of Atom's powers; allowing Ray to manipulate 3 fundamental components of himself: size, mass and density. This also doubles as his utility belt, hiding tools that are shrunken within it for him to bring out at a moment's notice, such as a sword, phone, laser pistol, entire computers and even a spare Atom suit amongst various other tech. Aside from just that, the Bio-Belt also contains a miniature transistor for receiving signals, an onboard computer that is synched to him; allowing wordless control as well as a failsafe button that teleports its wearer back to the place the belt was originally equipped. 


Atom Costume

Ray’s hero costume; a chemically-treated uniform made with the fibers of a white dwarf star which he normally wears over his casual clothes since its atoms are stretched so far apart that it’s invisible as well as intangible. When he shrinks, they group together and become visible. This costume also contains an encephalotronic grid in his headpiece and switches in his palm which both can be used to activate his Bio-Belt, and a holographic scanning HUD on his mask which allows for photonic mapping. 


He also sometimes equips an add-on face mask or helmet to breathe underwater, which also contains a radio for communication. Moreover, he also has a fireproof version of his suit that can withstand the heat of the Firestorm matrix, which can reach temperatures over 1000 degrees.


Katarthan Sword

The iconic Sword of the Atom… or at least one of them. This particular blade was gained by Ray during his adventures with the Katarthans after being forced to compete in a gladiator ring; it has since been doused with poison that causes convulsions and burns the blood. Similar poison was stated to be able to kill Ray himself with just a single scratch.


Scanners

The Atom has used numerous scanners in the past to get a read on the situation he’s in, and with how often he’s used them, they’ve turned out to have quite the potency. They can detect disruptions in the temporal nanostructure of the timeline, detect disturbances in the quantum barrier, conduct geo-scans to locate objects, scan the entire Microverse in a short timeframe, and can even deduce the purpose of objects, such as analyzing a microscopic city and identifying it’s a spaceship rather than a city. He also has scanners which can scan people and give information from it. 


Ships

With inhabiting the Microverse for as long as he’s had, it’s no wonder that the Atom has developed a means of transportation in order to get around. They’re capable of shrinking themselves, and are plentiful, seeing as Atom has a drawer of them, they can also emit neural spikes in the brain, which are strong enough to knock out Hawkman.


Misc. Inventions and Tools

Atom also has a variety of miscellaneous one-time tools, weapons, and inventions that he either created or has used over the years, that aren’t extensive enough to have their own section, but are worth noting regardless, some of these inventions include:


Abilities

Ant-Man

Martial Arts & Acrobatics

Despite being as nerdy as a scientist could get, Hank surprisingly is capable in a hand-to-hand fight, having training in Judo, Karate and wrestling from all the way back in high school. Ever since he became an Avenger, he has received training from the likes of Captain America, making him capable enough to handle similarly well-trained opponents like Hawkeye in close quarters combat. It’s also notable that Hank has extensively trained himself in weightlifting and acrobatics in order to remain agile even at giant sizes.

Size Manipulation

He wouldn’t be called the Ant-Man without the main application of the Pym Particles, which allows him to shift his size to either shrink or grow to a variety of sizes by merely thinking about it. From as small as his namesake to as big as entire skyscrapers. From subatomic to his most impressive instances of growing beyond the bounds of reality into Overspace. And of course, he can do the opposite to shrink into the Underspace, the realm that's beneath even the subatomic realm of the Microverse. His fellow user of Pym Particles and Ant-Man: Scott Lang, was capable of shrinking smaller than an idea even! That’s right. Ant-Man can shrink smaller than a concept. 


While shrunken, he’s also able to do things like navigating the multiverse after deciphering the strange interactions that occur in the razor-thin subatomic spaces that are separate universes and discovering how they move across realities. And despite direct scaling being dubious, an alternate universe version of Ant-Man altered a portion of an omniverse-threatening, existence erasing, cosmic tornado from the First Firmament to such a point that it was able to disrupt the power absorption of the Doom Above All. 


Of course, Hank doesn’t need to be the small guy alone. He’s able to expose others to his Pym Particles, altering other people's size at a touch or from a distance through tossing streams of Pym Particles which have enough AoE to affect an entire class of kids (and Jarvis), or by a straight up anime-style energy beam.


Mass & Density Manipulation

Aside from just going big and small, Hank is also able to use his permanently-bonded Pym Particles to modify his own body mass. He does this by "borrowing" mass from another dimension called Kosmo, and likewise with absorbing mass from that dimension, he's also able to shunt his own there as well. With this power Hank is able to increase his own durability and ride shock waves. Using his Pym Particles he also has charged up Vision's density manipulation to beyond that of a white dwarf star, although it almost destroyed Vision in the process. 


Theoretically, it’s also arguable that Hank has some access to the Pym Axis (more on this in the verdicts) similar to his protege: Scott (albeit it was Scott that discovered the full capabilities of this in the first place), which would allow him the ability to change his density, durability, strength or any other application of the three at a moment’s notice.


Self-Substance

We know some of you may be thinking: “how can Hank breathe if he shrinks below oxygen molecules”, the answer? Because Pym Particles. Aside from letting him breathe at microscopic size, it also allows him to survive without the need of food. 


Resistances


Mind Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation and Memory Manipulation: Bio-chemically immunized himself from the effects of Ultron’s Encephalo-Beams, which can put people into a coma, cause instantaneous mind-death, violate memories or manipulate emotions. He has also resisted a crystal ball that was assaulting his mind via willpower. His cybernetic helmet has also been shown to be able to filter out hypnotic sounds such as Jason Cragg's voice, the Scarlet Beetle's call and Trago's music. 


Possession: Scott using the Ant-Man helmet was unaffected by the Abyss that could "possess hero and villain alike " including symbiotes, he theorizes it something to do with the frequency that he uses to communicate to ants. 


Anti-Pym Particles: Following Janet’s death due to Negative Pym Particle charges, Hank biologically rewrote himself to defend against Anti-Pym Particle attacks, and is vaguely implied to have other resistances on top of that.


Matter Manipulation: Ant-Man’s suit is able to counteract unstable tech shrinking and turning his molecules into a bomb.


Madness Resistance: Was able to temporarily resist the madness effects of witnessing the battle between Beyonders and Celestial Hosts.


Illusions: Upon realizing he was stuck in an illusion, via clearing his mind he was capable of breaking out of one.


Electricity: He has broken out of clamps that were electrocuting him and should have kept him unconscious.


Stun Rays: He easily shrugged off being blasted by stun rays while giant.


Atom

Martial Arts & Acrobatics

While not the most experienced with martial artists, especially in a universe with the likes of Batman and Wonder Woman, the Atom is not totally out of his field when it comes to martial arts. He has learned Judo in the past and other martial arts well enough to beat a group of trained soldiers adapted to his powers, which works greatly with his hypermobility. He can perform acrobatic actions such as somersaults in mid-air with relative ease, and is stated to move as gracefully & swiftly as olympic athletes.


Telepathic Link

With time, Ray ended up developing a mental link to the white dwarf star that powers his suit, allowing him to control his powers with merely thinking, as well as form and deform his suit.


Size Manipulation

The main ability and part of the Atom’s namesake, his ability to shrink has allowed Ray Palmer to perform many great leaps into smaller sizes, from the size of ants, to molecules, to atoms (obviously), to protons, to even infinitely small with the belt's ability to allow Ray to shrink into the Microverse, and even so small as to enter the very quantum realm of the Microverse, and even crazier, become so small he didn’t exist by technicality! It even allows Ray to travel on a quantum level between realms.


His control over size also allows for wackier appliances such as:


Beyond just applying shrinking to himself, he’s capable of doing the same to anything that comes in direct contact with his body (that’s actually how he breathes while shrunken!) or remotely shrinking people if they have one of his belts on. Similarly, the belt’s range allows it to affect multiple people in a small area around Ray, and at its peak, be able to shrink the entire planet to the size of a ball! 


Mass & Density Manipulation

One of the other major powers of the Atom is the ability to control his own mass and density, allowing him to retain his weight despite shrinking, and when actively controlling his density, he’s capable of tripling his weight while full sized as a bare minimum, but more extreme and potent usages of his powers include that with his control over his mass and density, he’s gone as dense as a white dwarf star to lighter then “beyond weightless”.


Other more eccentric uses of this power includes:


Resistances


Cosmology

Marvel

Kosmo

Kosmo is the other-dimensional world where Hank’s mass is transported into and out of when he manipulates his size and density.


Microverse

The Microverse is… complex to say the least. There are statements of entire universes existing within the mere atoms that make up normal universes within the multiverse. There are statements that indicate that the Microverse is not within the atoms of physical reality, but rather underneath it as a parallel dimension. There are statements that imply both of these things are simultaneously true. Irrespective of it all, it cannot be doubted that the Microverse is one of the most crucial pieces of the Marvel cosmology. It exists below quarks and neutrinos and planck length. It exists as the foam that holds all of reality together. While not cosmology related it should be noted that using Pym Particles inside the Microverse is extremely dangerous due to their instability, which could lead to its user getting a heart attack. 


The Superflow

This omniverse and all multiverses and universes within are kept separate by the multiversal Superflow. The multiversal Superflow is broken down into a Superflow per universe that connects to the conceptually transcendental Superflow of Dreamtime/the “true” Superflow. This Superflow is a conceptual space that holds abstract, metaphysical concepts and archetypes that are beyond time and space. The Superflow holds many layers such as the Microverse, Macroverse, Astral Plane, No-Space, and the Multiplane. The Celestial Destructor was theorized to be a platonic concept at its purest and the race of Aspirant Celestials that it came from were archetypal concept-entities within the Superflow.


Macroverse

The Macroverse is a dimension that lies upon the traditional cluster of universes within the greater multiverse. There are about a transfinite number of these universes and infinite spatial dimensions atop this multiversal layer. The Macroverse houses the “universe” in a single thought. Upon that is another layer of creation that views the universe/multiverse below as just a non-existent dream. This layer is contained within another dream layer and this continues AD Infinitum. 


Underspace

Underspace is the realm below the Microverse. It’s the opposite of Overspace, following the principle “as above, so below.” Despite being “under” all of creation and smaller than small, it’s actually dimensionally comparable to Overspace. Therefore, however powerful Overspace is, Underspace would be as well.


Overspace

Overspace is the realm of the abstract entities. It’s a realm that exists either as the highest plane of the Superflow or completely above the Macroversal layers within the Superflow. Overspace exists above and beyond the Dimension of Manifestations which exists beyond reality as an abstract realm.


DC

The Mass Zone

An extra-dimensional space that the Atom is capable of drawing mass from, alongside where his mass goes when he shrinks. When the Atom “dies,” it is where an unconscious automatic survival mechanism of his can send some of his mass to, alongside his life-force.


Microverse

Beneath the standard reality of DC lies the Microverse, an infinitesimal, infinite, higher dimensional universe with its own life, ecosystem and other parts of a standard universe. Of course, the Microverse is a bit different, notably that it makes up the foundation of reality and connects the greater multiverse. It has reality rewriting quantum storms within it, and sentient planets. It even has its own molecular and quantum layers within it. However, the main thing to note is that if the Microverse is ever destroyed, it would take the multiverse above down with it.


The Bleed


This multiverse and all other infinite multiverses exist within the Orrery of Worlds. This Orrery is entangled in Bleedspace, the lifeblood of the multiverse. The Bleed separates universes. Ultramenstrum, a component of Bleed, is recognized by even the Monitors and respected for its immense healing properties. The Orrery and the Bleed contain not just infinite universes and multiverses but also an innumerable amount of spatial dimensions.


Feats

Ant-Man

Overall


Power


Speed


Durability


Atom

Overall


Power


Speed


Durability


Weaknesses

Ant-Man

Just because Hank is the Scientist Supreme doesn’t mean he’s a genius without flaw. The creation of Ultron alone should prove that much. To start, Pym Particles have a variety of weaknesses that could potentially put the Ant-Man in danger; shifting his size can cause damage to his body if he has open wounds, he becomes fatigued far easier if he were to grow giant (and it becomes far more taxing mentally and physically for him to directly switch from giant size to insect size or vice versa), the power of Pym Particles can be absorbed by third parties, and radiation can counteract the Pym Particles ability to shift his size. It’s also notable that his tech while he was the Wasp is vulnerable to EMPs. 


But while this isn’t exactly a weakness, it is worth noting that there’s a lot of talk about Hank’s mental state and if it’ll play into the fight, as it has been questioned if his mental stability would allow an opening for Atom to take advantage of or not. In this particular case, the answer is no. While he isn’t always in the best place, Hank’s mental state is far from something that’s constantly unstable, as he has shown plenty of moments with clear competence and no mental instability, and as we are taking Hank at his best, assuming he’d lose due to him being not in the best mental state at specific points in his timeline would be a disservice to the character.


Atom

Despite all the big strengths Ray has as the Atom, there are a fair few little things that tend to add up to being notable problems the Bio-Belt, and by extent Ray himself, have that can be exploited. Such things include that Ray is fairly vulnerable to loud sounds when at smaller sizes, that the Bio-Belt can be overloaded by specific frequencies and forced to a default state, him being unable to shrink if it gets down to absolute zero, that the Bio-Belt itself can actually be hacked, metal somehow messes up the signals from his size circuitry?, and that if the belt itself gets damaged, it can rupture upon Atom changing sizes.


These of course aren’t noting that without his belt, Ray isn’t capable of shrinking himself, as despite all the huge feats he’s accomplished with the belt, without it, he’s stuck as a mere man, of whatever size he’s currently at.


Before the Verdicts

Outerversal Ant-Man???

We all saw this coming. How powerful is Ant-Man when he’s in Overspace and could he just instantly kill Atom? Well… possibly. It’s very difficult to say. There’s always a possibility that Hank could just reach down into the lower multiverse and completely destroy it all. Being dimensionally amped to the level of Overspace would be incredibly helpful, as is supported by Hank surviving a punch from the literal physical embodiment of all creation. 


However, then we need to take into account the fact that Hank has never shown that he could do such a thing. Of course, he doesn’t have a reason to. He’s a superhero. And then there’s the narrative implications that a higher entity like the Living Tribunal might get involved if Hank tried such a thing. But that’s all irrelevant. The point stands that Hank simply hasn’t shown the ability to properly interact with physical reality from Overspace.


While he theoretically and from a logical standpoint, could solidly be argued to do so, we still need to understand that growing into and out of Overspace isn’t something that Hank can do easily. He is still a human himself. Not a conceptual entity like Eternity or the Phoenix or the Celestials. Interacting with lower reality can cause a tremendous amount of damage that Hank might not be able to repair. And eventually, when he needs to shrink back down, he’ll have pretty much damned himself to some extent.


There’s the idea that Atom can escape the destruction of physical reality by shrinking smaller than Hank can destroy from Overspace. Now that’s a bit more nuanced since hypothetically, Hank should just be able to blow everything down to Underspace into oblivion. However, we still run into the issue of Hank not showing the ability to properly interact with lower realms as an entity in Overspace. Even if we argue he can just pull a “Darkseid falls onto the multiverse” somehow, there are going to be unavoidable consequences for Hank which could very easily get him killed during the course of the fight.

If Atom successfully escapes, it would be a stalemate. If they both die, it would be a stalemate. Is it possible for Hank to still kill Atom through Overspace? Most definitely! But him randomly popping up there and killing Ray by stepping on the multiverse isn’t the most realistic scenario. Realistically speaking, this isn’t exactly the safest nor is it the smartest option for Ant-Man to exploit. 


Atom’s Pseudo-Resurrection

During Convergence Atom Special, Ryan Choi, who had been killed by Deathstroke in Titans: Villains For Hire Special a while back, came back to life.


More specifically the context behind this is that upon his death, an unconscious, automatic survival mechanism sent some of his mass to the Mass Zone, the place where Atom’s mass goes when he shrinks and isn’t at his full size, weight, and density, where his life-force ended up following. This was caused by his connection to the Mass Zone (which Ray also shares), and he sent enough mass to (because of his connection to Ray due to their connection to the mass zone) enlarge his hand to a far higher proportion. Upon Ray removing the mass Ryan was lending him via having his hand bisected. Ryan was capable of coming ‘back to life’, and turned a hand into a fully functioning body, along with transforming the fabric into a fully functional Atom suit.


This all seems fairly linear in how it happened, however there is back and forth on if this is actively applicable to Ray, and if he could resurrect himself on his own.


On the one hand in favor of it, Ray’s mental link (which Ryan doesn’t have, as he’s been restrained and unable to use the Bio-Belt before) to the Bio-Belt could allow him to add mass to himself from the white dwarf star in order to reform his body, which wouldn’t need to be a normal body of mass, considering Ryan brought himself back from a hand into a fully functional body, and which Ray would easily be able to figure out how to do since he solved how to bring Ryan back in mere minutes after learning he was dead. Alongside arguing that since Ray would have better control over his mass and it is stated again, that Ryan was in control of his mass when ‘dead’, and also had mass. Meaning that since Ray is capable of fighting at infinitely small sizes, he could continue the fight by reforming his body at a smaller level, something fairly arguable considering Ray's mental link, better control over the Bio-Belt’s capabilities, and extremely intelligent mind.


On the other hand arguing against it is the sheer vagueness of this so-called “feat.” For starters, this is not resurrection. It was explicitly stated that Ryan did not die. We actually don’t fully know what even happened here, but Ryan theorizes that he unconsciously willed some of his mass to this Mass Zone. According to traditional Freudian psychology, the mind could be divided into the conscious, the preconscious, and the unconscious minds. The unconscious mind is supposedly in charge of all processes of which we’re not consciously aware; potentially due to us not wanting to be aware. Whatever happened here, Ryan did not consciously control. Even more importantly, his unconscious would not contain the same thoughts, feelings, and processes that Ray’s mind does, despite their link to the Mass Zone. 


Furthermore, it’s incredibly difficult to argue that either Ray or Ryan could simply grow themselves back into the physical world on their own. When Ryan’s life force was transported to the Mass Zone, he was able to control a small amount of matter. This ability was linked to Ray Palmer for some unknown reason, which is the whole reason Ryan was able to control Ray’s body to perform an “atomic punch.” Similarly, this connection between Ray and Ryan was what was implied to be keeping Ryan “alive” (once again, Ryan never actually died). Ryan stated he couldn’t come back or make a new body because it was all connected to Ray and when Ray severed his hand to try to sever said connection, Ryan was able to come back. However, this would fail to take into account that once again, Ryan never actually died. He had a massive injury that he was able to recover from through unconscious drives keeping him alive by essentially transporting his essence into the Mass Zone. While he was here, he couldn’t really do anything himself. 


Hypothetically speaking, if Ray were to be transported to this realm in the case that Ant-Man causes an injury that’s potent enough (which is already a stretch), Ray can’t really do much. He has not shown the ability to heal quickly from fatal injuries. Ryan also stated that Ray acting as his “lifeline” which sort of implies that without Ray, Ryan would have died. For real this time. We can’t give Ray the help of other Atoms. That would count as outside help. And without that help, there’s no logical way we can say that Ray can simply come back. There’s no evidence for true resurrection and all the support for what Ray could do delves into multiple layers of theory on a topic that’s already cloudy to begin with. 

Bonus Fanart

Art by Dekhead


Verdicts

Team Ant-Man

Stats


Starting from the bottom to the top, let’s compare the stats between both subatomic superheroes. Given the complexity of this MU in regards to the sizes they can shrink between and the infinitely small or large dimensions they can reach, one isn’t simply going to stomp the other in terms of raw power and speed. So without further ado, let’s get into it.


For starters, both of their low ends are fairly similar given how impressive they are despite the fact that both are still technically human. Hank has survived being in massive explosions and can easily rip the tops off of skyscrapers which is very similar to Ray being able to also withstand sizable explosions as well. On a street-tier level, both Marvel and DC have comparable characters with comparable feats and scaling. Of course, this is barely scratching the surface of what these two are capable of.


When looking at their mid level feats, Hank is scaling to those who are easily of herald status such as Hercules, who can hold up the weight of the heavens, and Hulk, who is capable of destroying a universe with a clap. He also battled the likes of Atlas, who can match Moonstone, who can fight against Avengers such as Iron Man, Vision, and Scarlet Witch. Lastly, for Hank’s higher ends, Hank scales to other Pym Particles users such as Scott Lang, who have been capable of fighting against threats such as All-Father Ultron, who could scale to Odin, who has been stated to be capable of destroying the multiverse and creating a new one, on top of matching those such as Surtur and Seth, beings that can destroy the infinitely-sized structure of Yggdrasil and burn down all of existence. However, Ray isn’t outmatched.


On his own, Ray can punch with the force of a white dwarf star and has held his own against similar powerful herald characters such as Hawkman and both Green and Black Lanterns. Ray was also even capable of destroying a device that could power Jimmy Olsen enough to match Darkseid. Additionally, for Ray’s higher ends, he should also be comparable to his protege Ryan Choi, who was once capable of stopping the Ignition Point, which would’ve destroyed the entire Microverse if not stopped. Lastly, while it was a future version of Atom who did this, Ray was capable of lobotomizing Darkseid who possessed the Anti-Life Equation at the time.


Needless to say, both possess incredible feats that easily put both roughly in the same ballpark of attack potency. Furthermore, given how both can enhance their already insane power by altering their sizes even further, it will always ensure that one is able to keep up with the other. Now, it is worth mentioning that Atom does have an additional feat for power being the instance when he described how if he grew too much, he would destroy the Microverse. However, there are a few problems when it comes to this scenario that make it hard to apply it to this fight.


For one, the vagueness of how this would even occur makes it hard to gauge how applicable it is in a combat scenario. Ray has grown so large that he’s become too big for the Microverse which has allowed him to exit the Microverse hundreds of times at this point without ever threatening to collapse it, so what in this particular instance would cause Ray to destroy the Microverse by growing large? Secondly, its application, if it wasn’t vague in how it would work, would only apply to when Ray himself is in the Microverse. The comic specifically infers that Ray has to worry about growing too big while in the Microverse less he runs the risk of blowing it up. Ray has never shown any signs of worry about destroying the Microverse every time he became as small as something like a baseball.


Finally, even disregarding the dubiety of this feat overall and saying that this is something Ray can absolutely do, he would effectively be at ground zero for the collapse of the Microverse, meaning that should he set off what would cause its collapse, he would essentially be nuking himself on a cosmic scale, which he wouldn’t be able to survive and wouldn’t have enough time to escape by shrinking into non-existence. Meanwhile, Hank could very much avoid the destruction of the Microverse by shrinking so small he enters Underspace, or growing so large he enters Overspace, two areas of reality that the destruction of the Microverse wouldn’t reach. Simply put, the feat is not a valid argument to suggest that Atom could be capable of a feat this destructive. 


Now on the flipside, Hank can essentially grow so large that he and anyone he brings along will enter Overspace, a separate plane that not only exists outside of the main multiverse, but also several other higher cosmological realms as well. And as described before, Hank growing to that size would also entail altering his physical stats. This means that if we look at Hank and Ray at their absolute highest potential, Hank would be capable of levels of power that Ray wouldn’t be capable of matching. But with that being said, when disregarding Overspace, both should be roughly equal in attack potency. Both have feats on par with comparable street-tiers and when enhancing their stats through their powers, could reach a tier of power on par with heralds which would allow them to have scaling anywhere from universal to multiversal+.


If we take them at their absolute highest, you can argue them to be a bit higher but at that point, you may run into a risk of consistency. If someone were to argue Atom has more feats on such a high level, that claim could be countered with the notion that Microverse scaling isn’t as solid as one would assume. Similarly, as powerful as Darkseid is, Odin’s full power is many multitudes above that of avatar of Darkseid. Regardless though, for the most part, they have shown feats that are roughly comparable. Now let’s move on to speed.


In terms of Hank, he’s been shown capable of shrinking in less than a microsecond and can dodge blasts from Radioactive Man, who shoots radiation, putting Hank easily at FTL speeds. Additionally, he also scales to other speedy heroes such as Quicksilver who can react down to a picosecond, and Thor (oh boy here we go again) who can scale to Ares fighting in planck time, making him duodecillions of times FTL. Mjolnir also has several speed feats that easily reach an immeasurable level, such as flying to Asgard, which has many statements of transcending space and time.


Ray matches pretty well with Hank in this regard as well. Taking in Atom’s scaling to Green Lantern who can send constructs across the universe in a heartbeat, and Martian Manhunter whose telepathy can work down to planck time, both would be relatively similar in quantifiable speed, as both would be in the duodecillion range. Additionally, through scaling to Shazam, who can reach the Rock of Eternity, an area beyond space and time through speed alone, this would also put Atom within the range of immeasurable speed as well.


And yes, there is a statement which at first glance may seem to imply that Atom is the second fastest member of the Justice League. If we take that at face value and combine that with the fact we can’t necessarily go full on with Thor or Silver Surfer speed scaling for Hank, then yeah, Atom would be faster. However, that statement is dubious for a variety of reasons. There is no logical reason why Atom is faster than, say… Superman or Wonder Woman, who have direct feats above those of Atom’s. Similarly, scaling would also be thrown down the drain when you understand that all Atom says is that he’s simply the second one on the scene at any given point. And it’s not necessarily through direct speed but rather him traveling through the internet. Unless you think the DC Earth has Wi-Fi faster than Superman or Wonder Woman can fly (fast enough to tap into the Speed Force at times fyi), this statement from Ray would be ridiculous (in a bad way).


To summarize, both are easily capable of matching each other’s normal high ends of attack potency and speed. This, for the most part, makes them solidly comparable. Maybe Ray would have an advantage here while Hank has an advantage there. It would be extremely close and in the air. However, if we are to factor in every single iota’s worth of feats between both characters, Hank at his peak would be more powerful than what Ray is capable of accomplishing whether on his own or through scaling, simply because his scaling is more solid when Overspace and Underspace are taken into account. 

Arsenal & Abilities


When it comes to their abilities, both of these combatants have incredible powers when it comes to harnessing the true limits of shrinking and growing, able to go both routes infinitely, even going as far as shrinking below concepts. However, Hank will almost ALWAYS be smaller. Due to being able to enter Ray’s mind – since Hank is able to go into the mindscape at will, he can assure that not only is he always smaller but that he can exit through Ray’s brain to always keep track of him. The latter application helps with the addition of his scanning technology as The Wasp. With that out of the way, let’s look at some of Atom’s technology and see what counters Hank provides.


One of the main arguments we have seen in the community is that Ray can either use unstable prototype tech or generally cause someone’s molecular structure to destabilize and explode. The most notable usage of this was on the Spectre. There are several inconsistencies with this though. Mainly, this version of the Spectre was weaker than what would be expected in modern comics. The issue this happened in takes place 20 years before Crisis on Infinite Earths, so he should most likely be around multiversal levels of power instead of outerversal.


Next, there are caveats to using this move. In another moment it was used, it was stated that those shrunken by it only had 15 minutes to enlarge themselves before they would explode. This explanation means that Hank can easily enlarge himself to counter the effect, or end the fight within 15 minutes to not explode. Then finally, Hank’s suit has specific tech engrained to counter effects like this. As seen in She-Hulk Vol 3 Issue 7, Hank explains that his technology can help resist and counteract molecular destabilization that causes your atoms to explode. With these counters in mind, there are barely any ways for Hank to fall to such a play by Ray.


When it comes to dealing with the Bio-Belt and its numerous features, Hank will have to struggle a bit with anything such as manipulating mass or intangibility. But due to how his particles work and the fact he continues to generate them from his body, Hank can grow and add more mass to himself to counteract that balance. He can also use his frequencies to interact with Ray’s motor functions. This would allow him to alter them, which would make it impossible for Ray to actually activate and use the belt anymore to take it out of the equation.


This method is also incredibly effective due to the Atom having shown weaknesses to mind-related abilities before, such as being mind controlled. Ant-Man was able to use this on Chthon who was possessing Quicksilver’s body to mess up the language centers of Quicksilver’s brain. Ray wouldn’t be able to use translators to bypass this as the language centers in his brain would be fucked up. He wouldn’t even be able to relay the right message for the translators to work.


Furthermore, gods in Marvel have something called the “all-tongue” which is a form of omnilingualism. If it could work past a magic-based ability like that, a simple translator is NOT protecting Ray from that. If these options aren’t enough, Hank can use BFR to remove the bio-belt entirely. Even if Ray can teleport across time, he actively needs to turn this on via the belt. Since the BFR method allows Hank to target areas, he can remove the belt only and leave it in another dimension so Atom cannot get it back.


How would Hank know all this? There are several possible ways. With how his helmet works, Hank has been able to adjust his frequencies to interact with the human mind on numerous occasions. Whether those being with motor functions or actually filtering the thoughts of others into his goggles. Most notably, Hank has been able to scan and understand data from energies beyond regular comprehension, such as the Scarlet Witch’s magic. These scanners have also picked up incredibly specific details, such as changes in one’s eyes to figure out if they’re not who they say they are, in fact this happened twice.


Hank’s other arsenal is filled with ways to mess with Ray as well. With image inducers that can fool Reed Richards and even Ultron’s scanner, he can keep away and hide from Ray’s own scanning methods. Alongside this, he has technology that can induce comas which would immediately put Atom in a resting state, despite it requiring a bit of prep. While Atom has been able to break out of a dreamstate with raw willpower, this is largely inconsistent with his many other showings of mental weakness, such as when he was mind controlled and as mentioned before put to sleep to relive his memories. Although he was able to break out of the latter, it still affected him in the first place and he had to actually put in effort to break out.


A counter that Atom could try is potentially destroying tech like Pym’s helmet or other gadgets. However, this is going to be a very tricky situation for him to accomplish. Looking at some methods of travel, you could potentially argue that Ray could shrink down and ride a photon into Hank’s helmet or belt, in a similar way he has ridden waves of heat. This would potentially work, but not only could Hank scan him, but do the same in turn with either himself or his ant army. Scott has shown the ability to shrink down and ride photons as well to infiltrate past force fields or into enemy territory. So with this being a method for both, it's honestly more likely that Hank sends an army of ants into the bio-belt to mess with its mechanisms. This is actually a tactic used by Hank on weapons in the past, such as when he shrunk ants and clogged up a gun with honey to make it unusable.


Another potential method Atom could try is outright outmuscling Hank and destroying his arsenal. This is going to be hard to do due to them being similar in ranges of power, but with his mass manipulation he might be able to amplify his own to crush it, remove its mass, or try to destabilize them. However as addressed before, Pym Particles not only add back mass to Hank but his equipment as well.


Not only that, but Pym Particles have been directly filtered into technology before, allowing it to withstand the crushing nature of the Neutral Zone. This is highly impressive due to the Neutral Zone being dimensionally above the Overspace with a crushing force that can break things into nothing. At this point, the weapons would be far too high in durability for Ray to even land a scratch on them. To reiterate an earlier point as well, since Hank’s tech just outright resists destabilization that is not a valid method either. So in short Atom can potentially crush or remove mass when given the chance, but Hank can add that mass back and outright amplify his gear to a level above Ray’s maximum power.


Some might argue that Atom can just… deal with the ants without much of an issue. Normally, yes, that is true. But these aren’t just normal ants. They’re ants with Pym Particles! Hank can amplify their stats and alter their densities. And it’s not just ants, there’s a whole bunch of other insects Hank can control. Hank also has robotic ants that he can deploy to fight off Palmer. Ants that would innately be resistant to the Gordanian bomb. Atom’s ability to make concentrated nuclear explosions didn’t even kill Deathstroke, let alone insects amplified with enough Pym Particles to be capable of hurting Namor, a guy capable of trading blows with both the Thing and the Hulk. Hank has serums that can prevent him from being affected by radiation as well. As for Ray having planet-wide AoE… it’s not via his Bio-Belt! He has better AoE in terms of his shrinking, but he doesn’t have enough range to counter all the insects coming at him. 


Ant-Man could possibly exploit the loud noise weakness with his voice amplification tech in his Wasp suit. This suit has a megaphone integrated into the suit to amplify Hank’s voice to absurd levels, by making his voice at any size sound audible to a human. This is likely to cause the Atom to recoil from the large amounts of noise at such a size. Outside of this method, Hank just by growing into Giant-Man has shown the ability to have such enhanced lungs that he can let out a scream equal to that of a sonic boom. It is safe to say he can fully utilize this weakness to his benefit.


Ant-Man could hack the belt as well. In the past, Hank has shown incredible prowess in hacking advanced technology. There is no better example than his own son, Ultron. In Age of Ultron #10, we see what Hank can really put his mind to. While Ultron is fighting the Avengers, Pym attempts to hack into the android to shut him down. However, since Ultron was entirely based off of Hank’s brainwaves and how he thought, he was able to constantly recreate and edit any of his code that was being lost or hacked to fight back against his father. Yet through his intellect, Hank was able to essentially outsmart himself and bypass Ultron’s coding and shut down his body. If he was able to do this to a sentient android who could protect himself and basically change the basis for his coding, there’s no reason why he couldn’t hack into Ray’s belt.

The final advantage Atom has that we must tackle is the ability to phase. In any other circumstance, this would be a great addition to his arsenal. However… Hank has a way to counter it. Assuming Hank hasn’t already made the belt unusable, it is likely he has access to the Pym Particle’s Axis. What this means is that Hank has the ability to change his density, durability, strength and any other application of the three. While Scott was the first one to figure out the full capabilities of the axis, it’s entirely possible that Hank should know about this axis and likely how to harness it too, after Scott did.


This would give him access to the potential strength of other heralds such as Wonder Man, but most importantly, the phasing of the Vision. And Vision’s phasing is insane. He can use it offensively to knock out Hyperion, Hercules, and to hurt both Annihilus and Wonder Man. Now direct 1-to-1 scaling to Vision’s phasing might be a bit too much, but Ray has never shown that his phasing is complex enough to even begin to be comparable to Vision’s, so Hank doesn’t really need to be fully comparable to Vision. As long as his control over the axis is good enough, he’d be able to counter Atom’s phasing by potentially phasing himself.


As far as Atom’s resurrection goes, it simply is not valid as it seems. Ryan never died to begin with so we can’t really jump to the conclusion that ALL Atoms can just come back to life using the Mass Zone, which is quite honestly what happens look at it from a surface level. The moment you delve into the feat, you see many many cracks. Deathstroke supposedly “murdered” Ryan by stabbing him through the chest. Hank has far more creative ways of actually ending Palmer’s life which won’t exactly leave much matter for Ray to hypothetically regenerate from. We’ve never been shown that Ray can survive without his internal organs or other important bodily elements like moisture. If Hank were to get a serious injury on Ray, we can’t even solidly say if Ray can transport himself to the Mass Zone, let alone if he’d be able to instantly come back.


As far as Atom shrinking infinitely small and only needing an infinitely small amount of mass to “come back” goes, we can’t even solidly say that’s how it works. Once Ray is in a limbo state between life and death, tethering onto a character he wouldn’t even be allowed in this fight due to it being extra help, what’s to say he can just shrink smaller and smaller down? Ryan could hardly use his powers in the Mass Zone. And even after severing the connection with Ray, Ray wasn’t able to regenerate his hand. Hell, at the end of the comic, Ryan wasn’t able to actually grow Ray a new hand but rather needed to manually use the Bio-Belt to transfer the mass from Deathstroke to Ray. That’s not a viable option here whatsoever.


And speaking of the Bio-Belt, what’s to say Ray could even be transported to the Mass Zone the moment he loses access to the belt? That’s if it even passes the first assumption that Ray and Ryan have the exact same unconscious connections to the Mass Zone. Holistically looking at it, it’s a tangled mess of a web that really can’t be undone properly, as something of this nature hasn’t really been done by the Atoms afterward. It’s not clear, consistent, and contains far too many variables to act as a wincon.


Tertiary Factors


After all of that, all that’s left to discuss is skill, experience, and intelligence. Thankfully, these categories are far more straightforward that Stats and Abilities. So let’s discuss the remaining import-Ant aspects to this MU.


Surprisingly, in terms of skill, both have had experience with training in Judo in their spare time. But luckily for Hank, he’s also learned Karate and more importantly, had training with Captain America, one of the greatest hand to hand fighters in all of Marvel! With that in mind, Hank most certainly takes the skill edge, meaning that should the fight ever involve close quarters combat, Hank would very likely dominate up close. This would also apply if Ray tried using one of his swords, as Hank could very easily disarm him and use Ray’s sword against him.


In terms of experience, neither really has a distinct edge over the other in this regard. Both have been active superheroes for extended periods of time with Hank being a founder of the Avengers and Ray being one of the earliest members of the Justice League. Additionally, given that their tech has allowed them to not only fight against those that may have crazy powers of their own, but allow Hank and Ray to explore their infinitely small planes of reality means that both are very well versed in things that a normal person couldn’t ever imagine. However, if we want to be technical, Hank discovering Overspace by growing big enough to enter it is arguably something Ray has never experienced so at best, we could say that Hank has a slight experience edge, but not one that would actually make a massive difference in this fight.


It is worth mentioning that both Hank and Ray have both had experiences fighting against those with shrinking technology and Ray has even had experience fighting against a villain who can summon an army of bees. However, this is very much so comparing apples to oranges, since those instances for both Hank and Ray have been against opponents who lack the same experience, versatility with their shrinking tech, intellect, and skill in comparison to themselves. So just because Ray can face off against a dude who can summon bees, that doesn’t automatically mean that he can fight off an army of ants since, as described earlier, Hank’s ants are far more versatile than just regular bees. Similarly, just because Hank has had experience fighting against those who also use Pym Particles, that doesn’t mean he would know exactly what to do against Ray and his tech.


Lastly, when it comes to intellect, this is relatively easy to decipher given the characters in question. Of course, Hank has been declared Scientist Supreme of his world and is comparable to some of the greatest minds in Marvel such as Tony Stark, Stephen Strange, Reed Richards, and Victor Von Doom. Meanwhile, Ray actually isn’t too far behind as he’s been called one of the most brilliant minds on Earth by Superman and not too far behind when compared to scientists such as Lex Luthor. Without a doubt, Ray isn’t a slouch when it comes to intelligence but inevitably, Hank does end up taking the intelligence edge because he’s actually comparable to the smartest people in his universe while Ray is slightly behind those who would share similar intellect to the ones that Hank matches.


Ultimately, while Hank and Ray are fairly similar in terms of tertiary factors, Hank ends up arguably taking all three of them by having a slight experience edge, a far better skill edge, and a moderately higher intelligence edge. Of course, Ray isn’t a slouch when it comes to these aspects of the MU and Hank will definitely have to give it his all to come out on top, but Hank has just enough going in his favor between his skill, experience, and intellect to prove him Ray’s superior.

Conclusion

"I know we don't view this in the same way. You're an adrenaline junkie, through and through. Meanwhile, I'm still looking for some sort of greater purpose in all of this. The costumes, the code names...the specific application of scientific achievement to acts of heroic responsibility. And a whole army at our command. No one's 'playing super hero' hero. We are superheroes."


Advantages:

  • Comparable in speed and power

  • Comparable shrinking to Atom

  • Overall more versatile if given all their equipment 

  • Can grow to higher dimensional sizes, potentially enhancing stats to levels that Ray can’t match

  • Scanners make it easy for Hank to learn that Ray’s powers come from the bio-belt

  • Can exploit the Bio-Belt’s weakness physically (ants), technologically (hacking), and mentally (alteration of Ray’s brainwaves and his mental connection to the belt itself)

  • Can control other insects & has robots, generating an army with amplified stats to match Atom’s

  • Resists Ray’s most potent haxes such as Ray’s molecular disruption

  • Smarter, albeit, it is difficult to say how much smarter

  • More skilled and better trained in CQC

  • Comparable experience fighting as a hero

  • ANTS

  • Earth’s Mightiest Heroes


Disadvantages:

  • Ray is more versatile with density manipulation

    • Intangibility, invisibility, mass stealing 

  • Atom can resist quite a bit of Hank’s hax

  • Atom has way better AoE with his shrinking

  • Is currently, y’know, dead

  • Ultimate Ant-Man

  • Has a shitty love life


We on team Ant-Man believe he should come out on top. When looking over everything provided on both sides, Hank just about counters and equates Ray in every category. Hank can nullify his destabilization, remove his Bio-Belt with a wave of his hand, and match Ray blow for blow in terms of how high they can both reach statistically and mentally. However, that's where similarities begin to end. Despite how low both can shrink, Hank can always ensure he’s smaller with easy ways to scan and teleport to the Atom regardless of where he is.


Not only this, but Hank can also mess with Ray’s mind, which we know has worked before. This would either be through generally reading his mind’s frequency or essentially rewiring his brain to not allow usage of his main ability. This coupled with ranged options such as hacking or the dimensionalizer give Ant-Man a full range of options to end the fight fast. With the latter weapon, he could wipe away either the belt or Ray’s head alone and make it detach from his body. This type of dimensional dismemberment is something Atom has shown no way to get back from in the past, as those instances required his full body to be there to utilize the belt. As for when he summoned the belt, it's more likely that this does not range to other universes or dimensions, as it has never been shown to do so. Whenever it's been done, it has blatantly been on the same plane of existence as its user.


Despite their similar stats, Hank easily takes numbers. With how many ants he can control at a given point in time, and the fact he can grow and shrink them alongside himself, there’s no way Atom could easily deal with them in mass. Not only that, but Hank’s are incredibly intelligent. They are smart enough to help with his creations, and their general ability to work together which is native to ants as a whole. They can relay information without Atom knowing, shrink and go into his bio-belt or even his body, and then use whatever is at their disposal to either gunk up his tech or tear him apart from the inside. This is all without the fact that Hank can control ANY type of insect, which would raise his armies easily into numerous quadrillions.


Another big reason why Hank has the leg up on Ray is his resistances. While some are based on a bit of assumption, there is logical reasoning behind it. This is because Hank should be fully aware of the Axis and how it operates and even how to utilize it, as he’s worked with Vision and Wonder Man in the past and knows how their powers operate off the same particles. Outside of this assumption, he does resist the most deadly aspects of Ray’s arsenal. This being the destabilization. With it not only taking far too long for it to be a viable win condition, Hank has the ability to counter it by growing or having his tech just negate it entirely for him. So while Hank can resist Ray’s deadliest options, the latter cannot do the same against him.


So in conclusion, Hank should win. With a vast arsenal and army to play keep away or track the Atom anywhere, Ray can’t run and stall. With his similar stats and shrinking, it will be hard for Ray to get any advantage over Hank. Then finally, with his resistances, Ant-Man can hold on long enough to take advantage of ANY of his potential methods to end this battle and split this Atom.


Team Atom

Stats


Starting small, let’s begin with a comparison of stats between these two microscopic heroes. Considering that despite the various factors that make this fight far more than a simple battle of stat bricks, it’s still a significant factor that needs to be covered thoroughly in order to set the groundwork for how the battle between these two would end up playing out.


Starting with Atom’s level of strength, he has quite the resume in terms of impressive feats and scaling, starting with the bottom. With a single hit, he’s sent the likes of Deathstroke flying, survived a variety of explosions near their epicenter, even one that dwarfed planets! He’s also dodged explosions, shrank faster than a nuclear explosion could expand at point blank range, and has ridden on photons at many times the speed of light. Showing that even on the lower end of the spectrum for the feats he can accomplish, he’s no slouch.


Of course, this is only the tip of the iceberg for the levels of power Ray can reach, as going into the middle ends for Atom’s level of power show he can compete with the universe busters of the DC Universe, seeing as he’s ripped Black Lanterns in half, knocked over Hal Jordan, thrown Guy Gardener around, and knocked out Black Lantern Hawkman’s tooth, Atom’s level of power isn’t something to be trifled with, considering that even rookie Green Lanterns can create universes, and the likes of Kyle Rayner can contain galaxies’ worth of energy. He’s also managed to dodge attacks from Black Lantern Martian Manhunter, and his protege Ryan Choi has managed to dodge attacks from the likes of Wonder Woman. Thanks to scaling, all of these feats can get the Atom within the range of quadrillions, quintillions and even duodecillions of times the speed of light.


Of course, this isn’t even the peak of the ends you can argue for Atom’s level of strength, as he’s managed to destroy, and withstand, the energy of a containment device’s energy that amped the likes of Jimmy Olsen, a normal person, to box a Darkseid avatar on near equal footing. Darkseid's avatars have many impressive feats on their own, such as matching Superman, who two of can risk destroying multiple universes, crush Lantern Rings casually, similarly casually backhand the likes of Captain Atom, who can destroy and recreate the entire universe, and even withstand blows from Alan Scott when he was amped by the entire multiverse’s willpower.


This isn’t exactly inconsistent for Atom’s power level either, as he’s been considered one of the stronger leaguers on a team with the likes of Hawkman, Kyle Rayner, Zatanna and Wally West, and while he obviously isn’t matching the peaks of the latter three, it puts a level of consistency to him being on a wider multiversal scale at his peak. He has considered himself one of the fastest leaguers and has been complimented by Flash on his reflexes. While you could see the former statement as dubious on if it’d apply to every feat, even slightly humoring it would allow him to scale to Shazam casually traveling to the Rock of Eternity, which exists beyond space-time, and Ray himself has accelerated so much he filled a junction with the ‘probability of his existence’. Meaning that a multiversal level of strength and immeasurable level of speed for Atom isn’t out of the question, and has backing on multiple levels.


As for Henry Pym, his low-ends are similarly impressive, threatening to send Captain America to the next country if he didn’t block his attack, surviving a point-blank explosion of a helicopter while he was in it, carrying entire chunks of skyscrapers, shrugging off a catapult to the face, and even managing to keep fighting when Graviton was putting the weight of the world onto him shows he’s far from weak even with his lowest ends. As for speed, he has multiple impressive direct speed feats without the need for scaling, such as dodging close range radiation blasts, shrinking to ant size and then growing back to normal in a microsecond (this is about 2% the speed of light!) and shrinking to subatomic levels in order to dodge radiation.


As for the more middle ends for Ant-Man, he’s sent the likes of Vision and Namor flying, incapacitated an early Scarlet Witch, consistently staggered Power-Man, went toe to toe with Absorbing Man, and restrained the likes of Thor and Hulk, and even managed to react to attacks from the God of Thunder in the past. Of course, this would mean the Ant-Man would be comparable to feats such as Hulk clapping away Nightcrawler’s universe or the likes of Hyperion managing to survive being in the epicenter of an incursion for his level of power. As for speed, despite the old jokes of “Thor Slowdinson”, managing to react to the likes of Thor would give him comparison to Thor's speed, which can get quintillions and even duodecillions of times the speed of light. Showing that despite Ant-Man having a reputation for being little, he’s throwing around giant amounts of power.


Of course, just as Giant-Man himself can grow to cataclysmic heights, so too can we see the higher ends of Ant-Man's power, seeing as he’s been seen strong enough by Hercules that the latter actively backed down. Being comparable to the likes of Hercules isn’t inconsistent, seeing as when Hawkeye used the growth serum provided by Hank to become Goliath, he was deemed comparable to Hercules in power, and Hank was capable of matching the likes of Atlas, who was threatening to kill Moonstone, who had almost single handedly defeated the Avengers and Thunderbolts not much earlier. Comparing to the likes of Hercules would put him on par with a more serious Thor, who could move the World Engine that was threatening all of the infinite World Tree, and Mjolnir could travel to Thor after being sent to the farthest place of known existence in an endless abyss, which is actually consistent with other Pym Particle users being able to exist as a living quantum state. Which shows that the levels of multiversal power and immeasurable speed isn’t out of the question for the Scientist Supreme.


Of course, these levels of multiversal aren’t where the strength of these two end, as both have numerous feats that would allow them to be considered ‘cosmological threats’ or scale to higher dimensional levels of power. So let’s get to discussing these ends in detail.


The Atom’s scaling is a bit complex all things considered, as he has three separate feats to scale to, all of which have a lot of depth to why they would be reliable to scale to the peak of his power.


To start with the most simple of the three to cover, Ray stating he was capable of destroying the Microverse if he grew too big, while the counter argument would be that “he’s just growing big enough that the Microverse can’t handle his existence”... this argument doesn’t really make sense? Not only has Ray shrank into and grown out of the Microverse in the past, meaning that the Microverse has handled his existence being large in the past. But in the instance he was at risk of destroying the Microverse, he wasn’t even larger than planet-sized entities that exist naturally within the Microverse, such as the one he was on, which crosses out the possibility of it being caused by a chain reaction. So with that in mind, the only real interpretation that makes sense is if he was capable of damaging and destroying the Microverse with his raw power, as other interpretations of the feat don’t make sense.


Speaking of the Microverse, the Ignition Point is the next feat on the board to discuss, in which Ryan Choi’s ruptured Bio-Belt was capable of counter-exploding the Ignition Point, which was rapidly accelerating the decay and destruction of the Microverse, and even cracking the reality of the Microverse, the feat is fairly simple in that the ruptured Bio-Belt’s explosion counteracted the Ignition Point’s energy, and the Bio-Belt’s energy can be scaled to Ray and Ryan, considering the belt is powered by the white dwarf star fragment, and both can tap into that energy to amplify their levels of power.


Finally, a future version of Ray Palmer lobotomizing the likes of Anti-Life Equation Darkseid. This was 15 years into a bad future where Darkseid has the Anti-Life Equation and took over the Earth. The two things worth noting is that there is nothing implying or any reasonable assumption that Ray had improved or amplified his tech, and when we see Ray attack Darkseid's brain, we see the Atom symbol shining around him and energy being shot out of his hand, meaning that he was tapping into his powers to cause this damage, which means it wouldn’t be a chain reaction or some durability negation. Between the world being in ruin, there being no implications of Atom improving his tech, and the energy seemingly being from the Atom’s Bio-Belt, the arguments for scaling to the likes of ALE Darkseid are solid.


Ant-Man is far more simple in terms of his scaling to cosmological threats, considering he battled Absorbing Man when he was being possessed by Greithoth, and thus massively amped by Asgardian magic, and scaling to another Pym Particle user Scott Lang, who was capable of damaging and withstanding blows from the likes of All-Father Ultron, who had the powers of Odin at the time. This means the scaling is a lot simpler then one would expect for scaling to cosmological threats.


So as long as you are fair, it does appear that the Scientist Supreme and Microverse explorer are fairly comparable in stats across the board. Albeit once you go into the schematics, you can start to notice that Ray’s ends are more impressive in the context of him performing those feats to begin with, for example:


Ray survived a planet dwarfing explosion, while Hank struggled, albeit overcame, the weight of the planet being pushed onto him.


Ray was capable of ripping Black Lanterns in half, Hank has required help to restrain the likes of Hulk. 


Ray managed to break a device that amped Jimmy Olsen to box Darkseid and is considered one of the stronger leaguers, Hank was still compared to Hercules and fought off Atlas. 


Ray directly lobotomized ALE Darkseid and the Bio-Belt countered the Ignition point, while Hank was barely conscious after the clash between the amped and possessed Absorbing Man & Titania, and Pym Particle users could damage All-Father Ultron.


Overall, when you compare each set of feats, while their higher ends are roughly more comparable, in any other end you can start to see that Ray has better overall showings in terms of his upper limits at every level you can compare them on. While the Ant-Man wouldn’t exactly be outclassed, it’s still worth noting due to it giving Atom a slight edge in stats if you take into account upscaling and downscaling.


Of course, this isn't discussing that both are capable of amping their levels of strength. While Ant-Man is capable of making himself more durable when he’s at larger sizes, Ray is capable of amplifying both his mass AND density in order to hit harder and tapping into an extra-dimensional space in order to power up his strikes, while Hank explicitly just uses mass to hit harder rather than density. While both of these would allow them to go to slightly higher levels of power, it is worth noting that the Atom’s amp can work at any size, while Ant-Man’s is limited to him growing significantly larger in order to power himself up, meaning Atom’s amp is generally more reliable.


Of course, all of this discussion on both Hank and Ray’s stats would be remiss if we didn’t discuss Overspace. Where Ant-Man got sucker punched by Eternity (for the record there was context to that for why he wouldn’t fully scale in that Eternity was trying to teach him a lesson, and that him being that size means he’d have been a higher plane of existence and thus comparable to Eternity due to how large he is). Where he’d likely be higher than any other levels of power that Ant-Man and Atom can achieve.


The problem is… he doesn’t really have a way to reliably apply it to a fight with Atom in a way where he could use that level of power to his advantage. Seeing as his level of power would be because he grew to the dimension of Overspace, rather than any inherent level of power that he would be able to apply at any size.


The other argument would be Ant-Man attempting to interact with the normal multiverse from the size of the Overspace, however, not only has he never actively done that before, meaning it’s put into question if he’d even know he can interact with the standard multiverse. The argument of him trying to collapse the multiverse would be wildly out of character just to kill one person, as we wouldn’t argue Atom collapsing the Microverse either. It just wouldn’t make sense for Ant-Man to do so, even if he could or knew he could, which he doesn’t, to try to attack Atom from the realm of Overspace. Because while Death Battle removes any of a character’s hesitation to kill, it wouldn’t make them act wildly out of character and use methods they’ve never gone out of their way to do.


Overall, while the Ant-Man is by no means outclassed in the slightest, Atom’s better scaling as long as both are given fair dues means that while it will never be a stat stomp, Ray will generally have the edge, small or large.

Arsenal & Abilities


With these two genius scientists, it’s clear that there’s a lot to go over. The various abilities of their suits, their own innate powers, and their massive arsenals, so let’s size them up and figure out who has the larger advantages.


It’s worth noting from the beginning that despite their giant arsenals, not everything will be brought up, as some stuff is not that important in the long run or just not very combat applicable, while it is funny that Atom has a vaccination ray and Ant-Man tried to kill Moon Knight with a chainsaw that he can grow out his pockets, weapons like those, which are either not that potent or not combat applicable, aren’t exactly that relevant to the fight as a whole, and likely won't be brought up.


To start with one of the most important attributes of this fight, who can shrink smaller? The answer may or may not surprise you in that.. Both are entirely relative in this aspect, both have shrunken to the size of blood cells, molecules, atoms, subatomic, into a different plane of existence by shrinking, and respectively have gone smaller than ideas (Ant-Man) and so small they didn’t qualify as existing (Atom), meaning that similarly to some other matchups in the past, their main attribute can be summed up as relatively even in their peaks for how small they are capable of going.


Of course, this isn’t taking into account one of Ant-Man's other ways to utilize his size manipulation, in the aspect that he is capable of growing, whereas the Atom isn’t capable of shifting his size to larger than normal. However, this is moreso of a disadvantage then an advantage in any way, because the only real edge Ant-Man gains when going to larger sizes is that he technically has a longer reach and becomes more durable because of it, at the cost of allowing Atom to be more nimble and capable of dodging his attacks due to David vs Goliath logic kicking in, and because it gives the Atom more of an opportunity to enter Ant-Man's body and mess with his insides, meaning that while it looks like an advantage, unless he were to try to go to Overspace, Ant-Man's growth is more of a hindrance than an advantage.


Going on to the other major power of Ant-Man being his manipulation of the insects around him, while they’re capable of manipulating the weather (yes, really), harming people on the level of heralds such as Namor, and can use Pym Particles themselves, which is made more useful since Ant-Man is capable of controlling every ant on the planet. Which would mean he’d be able to overwhelm Atom right?


Unfortunately, Atom has a fair few hard counters that make Ant-Man's army not that useful, with the big one being his potent area of effect with his powers and weaponry. Such as the Gordanian bomb, which can destroy all flesh within 20 miles within seconds, a really potent AoE attack that would probably kill every ant that Hank has involved in the fight thus far, or Atom's ability to create concentrated nuclear explosions by sizing up molecules likely being capable of vaporizing large chunks of the army Hank might try to throw at him. Or the P.R.I.M.P, which relative to its size could affect all of Hank's ants in a city wide AOE, while ignoring Ray himself and putting the ants out of the way.


But his most potent area of effect would be the fact his belt can affect people in an area around him, that can extend to the entire planet. Which leaves Hank’s ant army open to some of Ray’s more dangerous abilities he can use with his Bio-Belt, such as shrinking the ants down to nonexistence, stealing their mass in specific areas to contort them, or making their density intangible and thus unable to aid Hank. These abilities would also prove dangerous to Hank himself, as he doesn’t have an exact counter to his body being forcibly made intangible (other than re-adding his mass to himself to reverse it) or having his mass forcefully rearranged or stolen (also, other then re-adding mass to himself, albeit it doesn’t fix that Ray can steal and rearrange said mass).


Ant-Man has a variety of methods for BFR, such as his own teleporters and the Dimensionizer, which could send Ray across space and time. However, Atom has an answer to this. The Boom Tube would allow him to travel through time and space to get back to the fight, not to mention his own ability to travel on a quantum level between universes and teleport to where he first equipped the Bio-Belt. As for removing his belt specifically by targeting everything except the belt or vice versa with the Dimensionizer, Ray is capable of reforming his suit, including the Bio-Belt on him, so forcefully removing it wouldn’t have that much of an effect.


The Atom in general has a fair few counters to some of Ant-Man’s more dangerous tech:


The molecular destabilizer in his Yellowjacket suit? The Bio-Belt has allowed its user to resist quantum fields being inverted, and in the past, Supergirl has used the Bio-Belt in order to shrink down to stabilize her molecular structure. 


Ant-Man has EMPs? The Bio-Belt has remained functional despite electrocution. 

Ant-Man has the possibility of scrambling Atom’s language center and possibly other motor functions? Not only has he resisted having his mind electromagnetically manipulated, but his universal translator, as strange as this sounds, would help reset his language center back to normal. 


Ant-Man has a gun that can perhaps age Atom to death? Atom has literally laughed off Chronos trying something similar.


It’s also worth noting in a fight where both combatants are capable of shrinking to infinitely small levels and back in short timeframes, keeping track of each other is a crucial aspect that could cause one or the other to get suddenly attacked from the inside or sneak attacked if they’ve lost sight of their opponent. Both characters have reliable ways of keeping track of the other wherever they might be. Atom has scanners that can detect specific entities within the entire Microverse, which is infinite in size due to connecting the multiverse. They’re also capable of scanning individual people, detecting quantum disturbances and figuring out the purpose of objects, giving him a variety of ways to detect where Ant-Man might be at any given point.


Ant-Man's method of finding Atom is a bit more complicated, he can use his ability to travel into people’s mindscapes, where upon exiting he’d be leaving from the body of the person he traveled into the mindscape of. Meaning he has borderline teleportation directly focused on Atom. While it is less helpful in terms of information analysis, it still means that he’d be able to find where Atom is at any given moment. Leaving both with fairly reliable ways of locating the other at any given point.


For attributes that somewhat cancel out, both have vehicles that they can fly around in that are capable of hurting Herald-tier foes, both are capable of flight, albeit Hank is far less limited compared to Ray’s pseudo flight via catching a flight on a draft of air. Both have probes they can send ahead to scout for information, both have laser blades and pistols to attack their foe with, and both have a variety of tools they can suddenly pull out of nowhere and use to attack their foe, so there’s a lot that ends up canceling out beyond their abilities to control their shrinking.


Ray has a lot more methods to avoid Hank’s attacks then vice versa, both have flight (albeit Ray is more limited) and shrinking in order to simply get out of the way of their opponent's attacks, but of the duo, the Atom is the only one with the capability of going invisible and intangible, meaning he’d simply be able to phase through a lot of Hank’s attempts to hurt him.


However, one of the things he doesn’t have a direct counter for is what the Image Inducers brings to the field, it’s capable of creating holograms caused by the ant army he brings, which are capable of fooling the likes of Ultron’s sensors, meaning that Atom’s own sensors would likely be incapable of picking up Ant-Man’s location. This would allow for the possibility of a sneak attack… if it weren't for Ray’s ability to affect the area around him in large quantities with his P.R.I.M.P., Bio-Belt and Gordanian bomb all allowing Ray to simply draw out Hank by destroying every ant in the nearby area. So while Atom doesn’t possess a direct counter to the image inducers, Ray is more than capable of working around the advantage it grants Hank.


In terms of close range combat, Ray has more reliable options for winning a CQC fight with their weapons, both can go up and down to try to get inside the other, but while Hank has mostly just ripped people in half as his strategy when going inside, Ray knows how to manipulate synapses to lower IQ, cause transmutation and block his blood flow fairly easily, meaning that while both are very lethal, Ray has more options for delayed tactics if Hank tried to get him out of his body.


In terms of normal sized CQC options, Ray has Hank beat yet again, the Katarthan Sword’s poison being capable of boiling Hank’s blood with a scratch, creating nuclear explosions he can control to fire at Hank from short range, and most importantly, the Atom's ability to affect people in the area around him on a whim, meaning that at any given moment, while Hank could counter it, Ray can manipulate his density, weight, contort him, steal his mass or forcefully mess with his size. While Hank could easily counter his body being destabilized and can grow from being shrank, Ray still has a variety of options to keep Hank on the backfoot in CQC.


For more long range lethal options, this admittedly is where Hank takes the edge, as he’d be able to resist the Particle Compressor attempting to destabilize his matter, and while Ray has lassos and laser pistols to make up the distance, alongside the Reducing Blaster, which could steal Hank’s mass from a distance and the Lens Adjuster, which could cause Hank to uncontrollably shrink, he doesn’t have that many options outside of once again, relying on his AOE to catch Hank in it.


Hank meanwhile has several reliable options including a glorified hairdryer, a force gun, the stinger, disruption blasts he can fire, Cellular Disruption Gun, etc. which allows him control over Atom's functions of his tissue. Of course, it’s worth noting that Ray’s abilities to dodge with his acrobatic body, fly out of the way, shrink rapidly or go intangible/invisible means that he could simply avoid most of Hank’s options to attack him from a distance, whereas outside of shrinking, flying and trying to dodge, Ant-Man doesn’t really have a 100% reliable way to ensure Atom’s attacks don’t land unlike Ray’s intangibility option. 


It is worth discussing if Hank could possibly mess with the Bio-Belt, as it has been stated to have a variety of weaknesses, such as absolute-zero, heat, a specific frequency of sound, and hacking it. The problem with three of these is that Hank has no surefire way to exploit it, as he has no way of knowing the exact frequency needed to reset the Bio-Belt, and he lacks any immediate means of inflicting sufficient heat or absolute zero.


Which leaves hacking, something that Ant-Man has shown a lot of proficiency in, as the Scientist Supreme, he’d possibly be able to figure out. There are two problems with this, one of which being that he lacks an on-hand way to hack the Bio-Belt, and since the Atom is capable of tracking Ant-Man almost wherever he goes, it means he won't realistically get a chance to exploit the Bio-Belt.


But then there’s the part you all have likely been waiting for since seeing it in ‘before the verdicts’, the discussion of Atom's resurrection. The exact details of what happened is there if you need to specifically refresh yourselves on what exactly happened involving it, so let’s get straight to business on why Ray Palmer specifically should be capable of bringing himself back from the dead and into the fight.


So, to start off, we need to establish some things about what was going on



With all of this in mind, we can begin discussing why Ray would be able to actively exploit this for his own resurrection en masse.


For starters, there’s no real reason to assume that Ryan’s unconscious and automatic survival instinct would only apply to Ryan, as it was caused by their connection to the Mass Zone, meaning that upon Hank killing Ray, he would send some of his mass, and by extent his life-force, to the Mass Zone.


So why is he capable of reviving himself? Well for starters, we know Ryan was in control of the mass he had, seeing as he was actively lending it to Ray, and we know that the mass is capable of shifting into a physical form, those alone wouldn’t be enough since Ryan actively needed help to be revived, but what Ray does that Ryan doesn’t is the ability to telepathically control his powers, and reform the bio-belt on him any given point.


With the Bio-Belt’s ability to manipulate his mass, and summoning mass from the Mass Zone itself, and even absorb mass from other entities to add to himself. Ray would be capable of using the Bio-Belt to replenish his mass in order to reform it into a functional body, since Ryan was capable of reforming a hand into a fully functional body with a working suit, so with Ray’s ability to manipulate the Bio-Belt with his thoughts and reform it on to him, there’s a clear argument for him being able to reform his body.


But this isn’t the only approach we can take to Ray being capable of reforming his body. As mentioned within the Microverse’s cosmology, the Atom is capable of functioning at infinitely small sizes, and Ryan, and by extension Ray, sent some portion of mass to the Mass Zone, and is capable of controlling what that mass does. Since Ray is capable of controlling that mass, with his greater understanding of the process as he figured out how to bring back Ryan in minutes after leaning what happened to him, would be able to likely reform a body to fight at subatomic and even smaller sizes, and could once alive again take in that mass from the Mass Zone in order to fight back at full sizes, or simply resize with less density.


Regardless of the route you take for why Atom should be able to reform his body, there are solid arguments for why it should be the case, because of his specific powers and intellect that allow him to reform his body and thus, be able to come back from the ‘dead’ to continue the fight.


So does this mean Hank has no real options for putting the Atom down permanently? Kinda, he still has options for incapacitating and even putting down Atom for good, but he’s very limited in options he has to kill Ray. So let’s go over some of those arguments he has for putting down the mighty mite for good.


There’s really only three arguments, the rest, while they could kill Ray, wouldn’t bypass the fact he could simply come back from borderline anything Hank could do, so let’s address them.


The first would be the cellular disruption gun being capable of incapacitating people by halting their functions, there isn’t really a direct counter other than possibly thinking that Ray would be dead if all his internal functions would be stopped, as it’d stop his heart from beating and thus arguing he’d send his mass to the Mass Zone if hit by the cellular disruption gun, but that argument goes more into hypotheticals. This one in particular is the only one without some sort of direct flaw, but even then Ray’s ability to go shrink, intangible, steal mass and thus the possibility of messing with the mass of the cellular disruption gun and making it explode, and his acrobatic nature means it’d be difficult for Hank to land a shot.


The second would be dragging Ray to Overspace, which has broken the likes of Absorbing Man's mind after a total of ten seconds in there. This comes with two caveats, the first being that he has to actively get into close quarters combat to grow Atom to that size, since his shrinking can only work in close quarters to that degree, the other problem is that Atom clearly won't just let Hank approach safely and grow him, considering his tools such as the Katarthan Sword, concentrated nuclear explosions, or just flat out going intangible in Hank’s grip, he has a variety of ways to simply avoid Ant-Man sizing him up to Overspace.


The third would be Hank simply trying to destroy the Bio-Belt, as it’s the source of Ray's ability to manipulate his mass, and by extent, come back. There’s two main arguments against this, the first being that with how Ryan was capable of reforming his body, it included shifting the mass of the fabric into a functional suit, meaning that while hypothetical, he could reform his mass upon shifting his existing mass into a living one, into adding a functional Bio-Belt. The more logical argument is that upon noticing his opponent is targeting the Bio-Belt, if near death or seeing his belt is at risk, he could simply will his Bio-Belt away, leaving Hank with no way to destroy it, and since Ray can reform it on to him with his telepathic link, it means that he could still bring it back after willing it away at a moments notice.


What is worth noting is that Ray doesn’t actively need his resurrection in order to win. While it does extremely limit Hank’s options, Ray still would be in a comfortable spot without it, as Hank’s only real instant win-con is the Cellular Disruption gun, seeing as Atom is capable of resisting or countering almost the entirety of the rest of Ant-Man’s more dangerous win-cons, whereas Ant-Man doesn’t resist the Gordanian Bomb, the Katarthan Sword’s poison or Ray simply contorting his mass with his AoE. Simply put, even without taking into account his resurrection, Atom’s tech just is more suited for the situation than vice versa, and resists more of Ant-Man's lethal abilities than Ant-Man resists Atom's hax.


With all things considered, when you size up the arsenals and abilities that these two geniuses bring to the field, Atom’s powers, equipment and resistances are larger in their overall importance to deciding a victor.


Tertiary Factors


Considering one of the main connections is that these two are geniuses, it’s fair to say that comparing their skills, experiences, and most certainly their vast intellects is also going to be a large factor in who wins, so let’s dive into the little details to see who comes out on top more times than not here.


In terms of general experience, both have been active for decades, seeing as the Atom was an early member of the Justice League, and Ant-Man is iconically one of the founding members of the Avengers, meaning both have been active in the fields for decades and have fought a wide variety of foes, from Atom battling Black Lanterns, his entire bug themed rogues gallery, and the like of Chronos. Whereas Ant-Man has battled the likes of Absorbing Man, Atlas, Ultron and Vermin.


So both are fairly clear in having decades of experience, and especially both having experience with their subatomic realms, seeing as Atom had spent weeks within the Microverse, and Hank managed to construct the Infinite Avengers Mansion in Underspace which would have taken a lot of time. Meaning both have fairly relative comparisons in how experienced they are with the strange, bizarre, and a variety of foes.


Skill is more clear cut in comparison, neither would compare to the top tiers of their verse that know every single martial art in existence, but this is one of the areas where there is actually a clear victor. Because while Atom knows judo and fencing, Ant-Man knows judo, karate and has experience wrestling. So in a raw comparison of what styles they know, Ant-Man would simply have more training, of course this isn’t taking into account that Ant-Man was trained by Captain America in CQC, which tips the edge of who’d win in a straight-up fistfight to Ant-Man's favor due to him simply having more training in quantity and quality.


For their skills with their powers, both have found a variety of ways for them to utilize their powers in strange ways for combat applicability and have creative usage of their powers, such as them both ripping their foes in half from within, and have utilized the environment to their advantage, albeit Ray has more direct instances of using his size to his advantage in stranger circumstances, such as throwing a pencil at full force and shrinking to ride it out of a cage as a stranger example, this area should in general be relative.


One of the more contentious aspects is if either have experience facing someone similar to the other would mean they’d be reliably capable of more easily countering the other's abilities. Both Ant-Man and the Atom have fought, be it against or alongside multiple people using their tech. However, none of their other foes were as intelligent, versatile, experienced with their powers, or potent with their powers as each other, as it’d be comparing apples to oranges, hypothetically similar as both are fruits (in this analogy, both having size-shifting powers), but far different in practice.


Though it is worth noting Ray has fought the Bug Eyed Bandit, who has weaponized an army of bugs before, and while they are far weaker than Hank's own bug armada, the comparison of having to fight off an army of bugs still exists, so this is still something worth possibly noting. But regardless, neither have fought someone like their foe, which means that both have the possibility of being caught off guard.


Despite competing against the Scientist Supreme, Ray Palmer isn’t exactly 100% outclassed in intellectual power, in raw comparisons, Ray Palmer was considered one of the smartest people on Earth by the likes of Superman, and is considered only two degrees of separation from the likes of Lex Luthor's intelligence. Whereas Ant-Man has obviously been dubbed Scientist Supreme and is blatantly comparable to Ultron, who was based on Hank's conscience.


While Ray is impressive and can hold his own, it is worth noting that Hank would take a fair edge in raw intelligence, and this does apply to their feats. While Ray can do complex calculations, figure out complex machinery upon seeing it, learn languages in days just from hearing it and correctly figured out what an alternate multiverse virus was doing to Hawkman. It does fall short in comparison to Hank easily figuring out Reed Richards's physics-defying room, outsmarting Ultron and Reed Richards, on multiple occasions for the former even, and building the Infinite Avengers Mansion. Once again, Ray is not outclassed, but Hank’s feats are clearly better.


So, while Ant-Man is more intelligent and skilled, the gap for the former isn’t insurmountable and the latter does have to take into account Ray's various tools to handle the skill gap. Both also have comparable levels of experience being in the field, using their powers in general and creativity in using their powers, and neither directly have faced anyone close to the level of potency the other has in their powers and skills. So while Ray might have fallen short in some attributes, he’s far from outclassed, and still can keep up in most categories.


Conclusion

“But it’s more than that. I have a perspective on the world that no one else has ever had. When you can shrink down to subatomic sizes, even the most mundane, everyday objects become remarkable…an adventure"


Advantages:

  • Comparable or slightly higher in stats with relative leeway

  • Comparable in shrinking

  • Comparable in raw experience

  • Better methods of getting the killing blow, regardless of the distance between them

  • Has experience with people trying to attack him with an insect army

  • Resurrection would significantly limit Ant-Man's ways of putting him down for good

  • Shrinking, pseudo-flight, intangibility and invisibility would allow for a variety of ways to try to avoid Ant-Man's attacks

  • Has more reliable ways of keeping track of Ant-Man with his scanners than vice versa

  • Has far better range and area of effect with his powers and equipment

  • Outside of growing to Overspace, Ant-Man's growth is something the Atom can exploit rather than be put at a disadvantage by

  • Resists or counters a large portion of Ant-Man’s more dangerous abilities

  • Ant-Man has never fought someone with similar levels of skill and versatility in shrinking as Atom

  • DID in fact lift the 4 thousand ton white dwarf star fragment off the ground


Disadvantages:

  • Less skilled

  • Not as versatile as a whole

  • Not experienced with someone with similar levels of skill and versatility in shrinking

  • Has no reliable way to get to Ant-Man if he were to grow to Overspace

  • Comparable, albeit likely slightly inferior, in intelligence.

  • Being dragged to Overspace could potentially break his mind, and thus bypass his resurrection altogether

  • The Disruptor Gun & salinization cannons could likely shut Atom's functions down, possibly preventing his automatic survival instinct from kicking in to save him.

  • Hank is able to resist a bunch of Atom’s own dangerous haxes 

  • Is one man, and would be outnumbered by Ant-Man’s insect armada

  • Has a shitty love life


Figuring out who wins this matchup is no small feat, and you can go back and forth on who you think wins without there being a clear consensus on the victor. But the more that you look into the minute details, the more it becomes clear that Atom is the one who's more likely to rise up to the occasion to take the victory.


With relative leeway, no matter which way you slice it, both of them are going to be comparable in stats, from direct low tier feats, to herald and even skyfather levels of scaling, as long as you are fair to Ant-Man and Atom, they will be generally comparable, albeit every step of the way, the Mighty Mite’s feats are more impressive and would likely allow for better scaling on those levels then vice versa, even if the Astonishing Ant isn’t going to be outclassed, it’s still a prominent advantage to keep mind of anyways.


Both also cancel out in a variety of ways, having a variety of tools they can suddenly size up on a whim, vehicles that can battle and harm extremely powerful characters, shrinking to such small sizes neither could qualify as existing, they can fly, send probes to scout ahead, and many other techniques both have cancel out.


But what is worth noting that Ray has counters, ways around or resistances to almost anything Hank can throw at him outside of the disruptor gun, the ant army is something Ray has multiple answers that allow him to simply make Hank’s armada a non-factor, he resists Hank’s EMPs, molecular instability, language scrambling, being aged to dust, can return from BFR and can simply get out of Hank’s grasp if he were to try to take him to Overspace.


Whereas in reverse, while Hank has resistances to being forced into intangibility, his mass being destabilized by Ray’s shrinking, and Ray possibly trying to transmute his physical body, he lacks counters to a lot of Ray’s more dangerous abilities, such as having his mass contorted across his body or even stolen, his flesh consumed by the Gordanian bomb, and the poison from the Katarthan Sword are all abilities that Ray has that could easily end the fight which Hank has no direct equivalent to being able to counter, meaning that Ray simply has more means to instantly end the fight then vice versa.


This isn’t also counting that while both are super geniuses, Ray has shown more creativity with what specifically he can do at smaller sizes and with his control over size as a whole, stealing mass from specific parts of the body, creating nuclear blasts by sizing up atoms, manipulating synapses, or causing transmutation with protons. For while Ant-Man is no slouch, Atom has simply used his powers in more creative ways and could catch Hank off guard with his more unorthodox usages of size and mass manipulation.


Ray can track Hank where he goes thanks to his scanners, use AoE attacks on Hank if he tries to hide with his image inducers, manipulate his mass in CQC to catch Hank wildly off guard, go intangible in order to avoid a lot of Ant-Man's attacks, Ray simply has a lot of ways to catch Hank off guard or counter the vast majority of his opponent's options, which leaves Hank fairly limited in what he can do that Ray doesn’t have some manner of an answer for.


While Hank is more intelligent and experienced in CQC, it wouldn’t play that big of a role, seeing as Ray has a lot more options for a fight in CQC other then simply being better trained, and the intelligence gap, while Hank is the scientist supreme, isn’t exactly a gap that makes Ray look like a moron, or even sub-par in comparison.


Both have similar levels of experience and creativity in their fights on the fly, even if neither has faced someone similar in the potency of their abilities and creativity to each other, which both means that Hank can fairly quickly be caught off guard by Ray, and vice versa, but it isn’t an exact advantage for either.


Overspace also isn’t exactly something reliable to assume Ant-Man would be capable of using it as a way to end the fight even if he were to go there on his own, as there’s nothing reliably saying he would in character try to attack the multiverse and possibly destroy it in order to kill Atom, nor would he know he’s capable of attacking the multiverse through Overspace, even if he’s been there in the past. Meaning that assuming he’d simply go to Overspace and try to continue the fight while up there is debatable if it’s even in character, much less something he knows he can do.


But the nail in Ant-Man's coffin is that he lacks a reliable and surefire way to put Ray Palmer down for good, as his resurrection allows him to come back from the vast majority of ways that Hank Pym has to put the Microverse explorer down for good. With only one reliable win-con that doesn’t have a direct counter for Atom being capable of hindering Ant-Man's options for using that as a solid way to winning, it leaves Ant-Man in a spiraling situation where it’s more likely than not for Atom to kill him once, before Hank manages to put Ray down permanently.


Overall, while there are a large number of factors to take into account, and Ant-Man’s comparable stats and shrinking, large arsenal, armada of ants, experience and intelligence puts up one hell of a fight, Atom’s more decisive stat showings, more reliable and dangerous arsenal regardless of the range, surefire resistances and counters to the vast majority of Ant-Man's abilities, and his potent resurrection means that with an extreme amount of difficulty, Ray Palmer should come out victorious. This verdict might be Antstonishing, but all things considered, victory was always in the grasp of Ray’s Palm for sure, because between these two combatants, the Mighty Mite was always going to be the one to go up and Atom.


The winner is the Atom.

Final Tally

Team Ant-Man (6) - Akhil, Dark Behemoth, Doctorhippotime, Weniss, Kirbonic Pikmin, eXoRy


Team Atom (7) - Ninjamonkey3904, greymerlion2, Cabbage, AgentRedhead, Rex, SoMaShadow, 08
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4 comments:

  1. Bluegatito17 June 2023 at 08:00

    Surprise that Atom won, especially with those arguments.

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  2. PerosiShades9921 June 2023 at 22:07

    Hah, Atom lost

    Hank's holograms are generated by his device which he has in hand, meaning there's no limit to the holograms he can project; Hank also has pym particles on his ants, effectively making the ants built to withstand explosions of great distance from Atom. Hank can also hack Atom's suit & belt to effectively manipulate Atom's size & weight so Atom just trying to enter his body will not work, and once in Overspace, Hank will just beat the shit out of Atom mercilessly. Hank wins

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oswald11 January 2024 at 14:59

      Lmao the idiot came to repeat death bsttle like a bot. No he cannot hack into his belt and cannot sent him into overstate because nothing stops atom from shrinking back down lol

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